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Thread: Shaper cutters

  1. #61
    this is how it came sitting in the other shop. sloppy worn fence not executed well in the first place however worked fine and they did excellent work. Lots of thoughts on these two shaper posts but not the time at the moment. Used it that way with the feeder a number of times and worked very well. Honed the knife back first but it was time for a touch up grind again so never really saw the full potential of the cleanest it could cut. Still panels came out cleaner than the brazed carbide heads I had, I never warmed up to them but first shaper was grossly underpowered.

    DSCF0857B.jpg

  2. #62
    I'm running a four wing, carbide insert head on a SAC shaper. I don't remember the feed rate, but I think it's spinning at 4500 rpm. I've never seen anything do as good a job as that setup does. That includes running panels through a few different brands of shape n' sands. The sanding time coming off my setup is minimal. I ran a whole mess of painted casing for a buddy out of poplar, with fresh knives we didn't even bother sanding the profile.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Edgerton View Post
    I find the opposite. Cutter above the work, dedicated fence with a cutter guard, smallest ring in the table supporting the work works better for me especially as I often design with small panels. I do not however use a non limiting cutter and do have a solid aluminum bar supporting the panel at the table level. Its too easy to tip small panels into the cutter doing it upside down.
    Many of the Euroblock profiles have one profile on one half of the knife and another profile on the other half of the knife. My double spindle shaper with threaded on spindle tops requires me to put the head on the other spindle to turn it in the opposite direction after flipping it over, and sometimes I admit I will run the knife on top of the work to keep the head on the same spindle, as I have another cutter on the other spindle that I do not want to disturb for one reason or another. I think I am in the same line as other Creekers in not running any kind of a dedicated setup as I am running a bunch of one offs/small batches rather than running thousands of pieces on one setup without touching it. I don't find any trouble in tipping a face down piece into a below the workpiece cutter as my table is large enough from edge to spindle to prevent that. The machine is also extremely stable as it weighs over a ton.

  4. #64
    Jack have you read somewhere that knife projection is based on the bottom of the groove? i never have its been three times the thickness. Thats based on stuff, maybe you read that somewhere if so can I read that ? ive talked to enough grinders trained guys like Weinig machines and no one has ever brought that up but maybe they didnt think of it at the time and i didnt think to ask. The last grinder I saw who sells insert said when you come to me I ask you a 1000 questions hes been in it 40 years so I can ask him.

    Knife projection number is based on all the parameters that affect that. based on how I run it you would be able to chew through that knife before you would ever break it off. Parameters make all the difference the rating on projection is based on them. The bottom of the serrations is minimal diff, its .030 down, they are V shaped and that whole area is not reduced. I dont know enough about metal but im not so sure that is an instant total difference to the thickness.

    Martin thanks on the four cutter been on the run too much to have tried the insert yet. Ill hand feed it with old cutters in first to see how it feels, then put new inserts in in and see how it feels and clean it is I did a quarter inch slot testing on cherry years back dadoe blades 8" then 5" single carbide slot head then a corrugated knife that had a shape that was like the slot. the corrugated blew the other stuff away in that it has less resistance in feeding then no chip out on the edges of the slot, I didnt climb cut the carbide and the dadoes were not sharpened yet the slot cutter appeared to be freshly sharpened then it was a smaller radius and and it was all run at 3.500 RPM.

    IM sure Mel has stated that he got clean enough cuts off M2 on panel raises that it didnt have to be sanded maybe depending on what it was. We know it wont have mileage of the insert carbide and we know the insert will be sharper and cut better than the old style brazed. Im kinda hoping the insert wont be fantastic as will be wanting alot of new stuff, one step at a time. I also cross grained that slot on the cherry and was surprised how well it cut. Anyway been to long since testing and comparing and time to do it again and document stuff. Anytime you are running stuff welcome seeing a close up of some panel raises just how clean it is on a few diff woods to have an idea. even if you said you never need to sand id still be sanding stained stuff on end grain to a finer level to even out any stuff being stained. Anyway im curious I should ask the new insert place I just went to not super far and stuff is made in Italy.

    Mel I was thinking if the gibs are already damaged a bit on the two blank slots it wont really matter I only run two kniives. Were you running four 95 percent of the time in shops I saw two knies in shapers and even mostly in molders though did see some of the big heads that had four

    When I mentioned that to Jack about the out of rules stuff I was only joking after he said go ahead I thought I should not have joked about that and almost didnt post. I ended up putting that on then thinking nah nothing positive gained from this but like many posts stuff comes in from all different angles and there is valuable discussion and points brought up that relate or are of interest as well. So some positive discussion does come from it.

  5. #65
    Warren, I have never had a set of four in any employment. Just two knives whether bought or made by me or someone else in shop. A very few times Ive used two different sets at one time in a four knife head to save time . But since knife movement with corg is one NOTCH at time (as different from move to right spot) it does not happen often.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Gregory View Post
    Many of the Euroblock profiles have one profile on one half of the knife and another profile on the other half of the knife. My double spindle shaper with threaded on spindle tops requires me to put the head on the other spindle to turn it in the opposite direction after flipping it over, and sometimes I admit I will run the knife on top of the work to keep the head on the same spindle, as I have another cutter on the other spindle that I do not want to disturb for one reason or another. I think I am in the same line as other Creekers in not running any kind of a dedicated setup as I am running a bunch of one offs/small batches rather than running thousands of pieces on one setup without touching it. I don't find any trouble in tipping a face down piece into a below the workpiece cutter as my table is large enough from edge to spindle to prevent that. The machine is also extremely stable as it weighs over a ton.
    By small panels I am talking panels like this, some with flats of less than an inch. I do very little cabinet work, mostly furniture.

    IMG_7323.jpg

    My shaper weighs in at 3400#, a double spindle as well but with both motors being reversible so that's not it. These are too small to do with a power feed, so I have a fixture made for it and do it by hand. For me my results are better with the cutter on top and I do not feel it is unsafe, in fact quite the opposite. Everyone has their comfort zone and methods that work for them with the machinery available.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Lake View Post
    Jack have you read somewhere that knife projection is based on the bottom of the groove? i never have its been three times the thickness. Thats based on stuff, maybe you read that somewhere if so can I read that ? ive talked to enough grinders trained guys like Weinig machines and no one has ever brought that up but maybe they didnt think of it at the time and i didnt think to ask. The last grinder I saw who sells insert said when you come to me I ask you a 1000 questions hes been in it 40 years so I can ask him.

    Knife projection number is based on all the parameters that affect that. based on how I run it you would be able to chew through that knife before you would ever break it off. Parameters make all the difference the rating on projection is based on them. The bottom of the serrations is minimal diff, its .030 down, they are V shaped and that whole area is not reduced. I dont know enough about metal but im not so sure that is an instant total difference to the thickness.



    When I mentioned that to Jack about the out of rules stuff I was only joking after he said go ahead I thought I should not have joked about that
    Warren you're not gonna read about that in the woodwork book . That's just machinist metal working knowledge . If you asked your saw Dr. how he cuts blanks he just scores it and snaps it off. high-speed steel is pretty Brittle stuff . Honestly what your show there was not horribly unsafe in the right hands and didn't want you to feel that you were carrying the torch all by yourself so I'll post something a little more scary . https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W0Wa7D88rCU
    jack
    English machines

  8. #68
    doesnt seem scarey to me used to jointers no guard from the start. That stuff I have a small moulder and had a corrugated head made for it so I can use those cutters on either machine. Nice profile

    Thats new to me on the bar stock. There are different grades and I see the grain run length ways in the material. Ive given blanks before for grinding and had the comment from a guy his whole life in the moulding bus say this is very high quality steel and I should have questioned him on that. Ive only ever seen anyone cut this stuff on cut off wheels even on sites that advertise as grinders and show the process.

    There are parameters for this stuff and things are run way below them cutter head runs at 6,600 RPM its run at 2,900 RPM with this Cutter, Feed rate is the slowest. The cutting surface is a fraction of the cutter there is lots of height over the material removal amount there which makes it stronger and, and id have to sit down but there are a number of things that work in favour. I have five or six double sets diff profiles from a shop with 10 people doing quality custom stuff with no issues. They ran that at the low speed as well so it proved itself. I'll check into it more, illl gravitate to the newer cutters but im not leaving this stuff just like that. Years back I called a tooling manufacturer. They put me to the owner, He said I wont talk to you about that. I said wait and talked for a minute, he said okay I will talk to you. This was about serrated and I got that he had had law suits with out even him saying a word. It went as far in the talk as him sending me the original drawings of his for the worm screw in Serrated heads. He had two employees as well I met at a show one ran serrated, he told me he always crouched below the machine for a bit when he started it, seemed odd to me but then I hold a thick board in front of me out of habit for a minute or so. Ill explore the insert thing more, im cynical about stuff till I see it. IS there a you tube of a guy running a raised panel one pass and a close up of the end grain to see how clean it is?




    My truck is 45 years old, it has no air bags and no ABS I feel safe ive never had an accident. Ive always had marginal cars though a good one now. My friend works now only on high end cars, in the past when he worked on all stuff he said of his customers the ones with the crappiest cars had the fewest accidents as they have an awareness and drive a certain way. I rode bikes from 12 to 30 trail stuff street and motocross. My friend just sold his Ninja as he spent too much time on the back wheel at over highway speeds. that is operator error he is an excellent driver but it struck him he was a millisecond away from life changing stuff. In europe in the 80's two bikes passed me two people on each bike I thought wow they are serious here full leathers and all non of us did that here at that time. Later in the day traffic jam ambulances all four people dead bikes were toast no front wheels. Someone pulled out, Last weekend two bikes wiped out four people I only heard a bit, north of here guy was an outstanding community member even the mayor went to the funeral, him and his girlfriend gone. He did nothing wrong some idiot took them out if I was told right. I had stuff happen on bikes sometimes on the highway, I was always calm about it I was lucky and what struck me was the cars were sometimes more afraid than me when they realized. That stuff scares me as we do all stuff right and its not always up to us no matter how aware we are. My mom told me a few years ago that she always worried when I went out on the bike that I might never come home, I felt bad when she said that, maybe way too many years later she told me. Her father had a shop in his home, she said more than once he cut a finger off and then put it on the bookshelf. Her parents were divorced I only met him a few times he built her windows for her home and she had them for 50 years. Im just talking out loud about safety stuff, she worried about the bike then her father set the precedent for her to worry about what I'be been doing for years. Im a worry some son
    Last edited by Warren Lake; 07-23-2017 at 12:30 AM.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    Northern Michigan
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    When I had my old Porter jointer I used it for a molder a couple of times. The tables slid back to allow profiled knives. Was tough to set up but worked well with a power feed. I Kind of wish I had kept that jointer when I downsized but it took up a lot of real estate. flat belt drive and all.

    On the knife projection thing. I agree with Warren that it is subjective to what is being expected of the knife. I have some 5/16" knives with an 1 1/2" projection but they were made to cut restoration moulding in Versatec and I do not use them with wood. I have some knives like the one in Warrens picture but I had them cut taller so there was more steel to spread out the stress.

    The thing is we learned all of this stuff along the way. We pretty much know how a machine/cutter is going to react before we ever put the wood to the cutter because we have made a few mistakes along the way along with years of conversations with other professionals. Like adjusting speed and feed rates to accommodate the cut and material, this is stuff that is learned to some extent by our experience, and books do not cover some of the weird stuff we end up having to do. I think it is best to advise amateurs with an eye to caution. There are a lot of things I do I would not let an employee do.

  10. #70
    yeah thanks on that Larry, I was thinking so many times how we do things based on what we have, bored out sears molding heads to make beaded face frames, its funny now looking back. I have tons of that stuff and diff sized heads. Junky stuff but it had good reach the way they were made, inconsistent quality but it got stuff done at the time. probably time to thin out the herd and move forward
    Last edited by Warren Lake; 07-23-2017 at 1:55 PM.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Edgerton View Post
    By small panels I am talking panels like this, some with flats of less than an inch. I do very little cabinet work, mostly furniture.

    IMG_7323.jpg

    My shaper weighs in at 3400#, a double spindle as well but with both motors being reversible so that's not it. These are too small to do with a power feed, so I have a fixture made for it and do it by hand. For me my results are better with the cutter on top and I do not feel it is unsafe, in fact quite the opposite. Everyone has their comfort zone and methods that work for them with the machinery available.
    Running something small with a decent sized fixture it is attached to is a totally different scenario than just running it along the fence- for example using a sled with a couple of hold-downs. The workpiece in the sled may not be large but the sled is and has plenty of bearing surface to run against the fence or table edge to keep the workpiece from getting angled into the cutter. Hand feeding something in a sled is safe as well as your hands are quite a bit away from the cutterhead, on mine (a Whitney No. 134) it's about 18 inches. I won't feed something less than about a foot long running against the fence without a sled or other jig as that really would be risky to tip the trailing edge of the workpiece into the cutterhead horizontally (identically to trying to edge joint something too short on a jointer.)

    Unless you have excellent guarding over the top of your entire cutterhead, running knives on top sprays the chips around quite a bit. Running knives underneath has the workpiece deflect the chips below the table surface and to the rear of the fence, both areas where there is a dust collector port to suck them up.

  12. #72
    One easy way of running small drawer fronts, and other narrow stuff is run them face down with wide material. Then rip them to finished width. Line them up end to end face down and staple on a strip of plywood, run on shaper and remove from plywood.
    Pretty standard before newer machines.

  13. #73
    have you guys ever seen this for a spindle moulder. Its all about holding the work for hand feed.

    jack
    English machines

  14. #74
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    That is a pretty cool fixture Jack, would open up a lot of easy possibilities. The indexing part is the key feature. I have made one off jigs that I threw away that that would accomplish easily.

    Cool.

  15. #75
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    I use a small wooden screw clamp to hold the wood when running the wood past router cutters.
    I have wooden push blocks and stick (two handed) when using my shaper. My machine has hold
    down springs that keep the wood on the table. I always feed the with a push block or stick.

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