glass shaker door with X muntin bars- joinery question??

[JOHN GILLOTTI]

Hi all, I need some advice. I have a kitchen build were starting that has small upper glass doors at the top of upper cabinets. the designer wants shaker doors with square stock muntin bars in an X configuration. I cant wrap my head around a way to make a decent joint between the muntin bar and door frame. with a typical profiled stile and rail I would cope and make a half lap joint. the only way I can see doing it is butt joints at the door frame and CA glue which I'm worried about it failing over time. I was also thinking of using a clear glazing tape as found on a SDL window. any Input would be greatly appreciated. thanks

[John TenEyck]

I do it like Steve Latte showed in a FWW article several years ago, with a small mortise in the stiles and rails to accept a short tenon on the end of the muntins. No glue required.

John

[Wayne Lomman]

I make shaker doors with grooved stiles and rails and a tenon on the ends of the rails that fits the groove. This method allows any configuration of rails including X. Half lap the crossover. Don't rebate for glass until after the glue is dry. This leaves all joints with full strength. Cheers

[Justin Ludwig]

I cheat and don't worry about joinery. Build and finish door and muntins, install glass. Install muntins on top of glass with hot glue. I've done it, looks great and no one knows. If the glass ever breaks all you have to do is remove the hot glue and start over.

[John TenEyck]

I cheat and don't worry about joinery. Build and finish door and muntins, install glass. Install muntins on top of glass with hot glue. I've done it, looks great and no one knows. If the glass ever breaks all you have to do is remove the hot glue and start over.

I would see it immediately. That's an ok approach for kitchen cabinet doors or similar but not for passage door, high end cabinet, or authentic looking piece.

John

[Mel Fulks]

If you cope them in ,the first piece ,the long corner to corner one, has to have the door assembled around it. Or be made in two front to back pieces . Draw corner to corner lines for bar centers, THEN outer lines , or you will complicate assembly ,glass sizes,and finished look.

[JOHN GILLOTTI]

I make shaker doors with grooved stiles and rails and a tenon on the ends of the rails that fits the groove. This method allows any configuration of rails including X. Half lap the crossover. Don't rebate for glass until after the glue is dry. This leaves all joints with full strength. Cheers

I like this method and this is how I normally make glass doors. essentially this is a true divide lite,I'm afraid with the amount of cross hatching the amount of pieces of glass and different angles is going to be a nightmare. any opinions on making the grills on cnc as a 1 piece insert, other than its cheating!! I hate the thought of it as well, but may go down that road. heres a render of the kitchen kitchen pic1.Jpg

[JOHN GILLOTTI]

IMG_2460.jpgsorry its not rotated correctly, this is the typical glass door I would make with a profiled door sticking ( coped half lapped joints). I should of thought the joinery for a shaker door before i sold it any input on doing a 1 piece cnc grill that would sit in the grove with the glass behind it.

[Mel Fulks]

I would unsell it. Honestly, I see that design as "diamond light lite". Too much "Keep Out." Not enough ornament. Narrow vertical design would look better. I'm betting customer would agree and thank you. A "professional kitchen design expert"
would bail out and accept the thanks of a grateful couple .

[JOHN GILLOTTI]

I agree that it's to much, unfortunately that's what the interior designer wants. I drew the kitchen with her initial ideas and then with the changes I would make( getting rid of the x's). Of course no one listened to the cabinetmaker

[Mel Fulks]

John, I would not hesitate to talk directly to customer. I once told a customer he had made a bad choice of wall paper, a minute after he showed me the stuff,and told him WHY. He said "interior decorator says its gonna be great". Called me back a few days later ,told me I was right , and took it down $1200 poorer. And that was $1200 about 15 years ago.
Good luck!

[Keith Mathewson]

How many to you have to make? The "cope" is a mited joint with a stub tenon.

[Martin Wasner]

In the past I've rabbeted the mullions into the back side of the front part of the shaker profile. It's a pain in the rear.

Are your mullions small enough to use a domino?

[Justin Ludwig]

I would see it immediately.

No, you wouldn't. They were shaker style and at the top of cabinets on a 9' ceiling. I rabbeted them together and they fit tight as possible. Unfortunately, I don't have pictures of that job. It was complete last year right before my Army drill and I never made it back for photos.

Is it ideal and correct? Yes and no. Ideal because of the budget. If the budget was raised I would have ordered them from WalzCraft or the like. You have no idea how cheap people are in my area.

[J.R. Rutter]

For square shaker mullions/muntins, I pre-make the grids with lap joints using parts that are cut to length for light pressure fit the inside opening. The thickness = depth from face to where groove starts. Yellow glue and then drill very shallow holes from back side that straddle the joint. Plug with dowel rod and cut flush, using super glue in the hole and accelerator on the end of the dowel. Flush cut dowels.

Having said all that, I would pass or quote a very high price to cover doing x-grid doors like this. Too many chances to screw them up.