Sharpening - Kicking It Up A Notch?

[Steve Mathews]

My initial attempts at preparing/sharpening chisels and plane blades involved the use of extra course, fine and extra fine DMT Dia-Sharp stones and various grits of wet/dry sandpaper using a blanchard ground steel backing plate. I think the results obtained so far have been fairly good but after watching some videos on YouTube, especially those by Rob Cosman I want to kick my sharpening up a notch. Here are some of the improvements I have in mind.

Shapton 16000 grit Glass Stone - Mr. Cosman uses this stone as a final step in sharpening after using a 1000 grit diamond plate. Seems odd that nothing is used in between. Does anyone know what he uses in the final step in flattening the back of chisels?

Shapton stone holder, the heavier one. I have the DMT holder with the magnetic base and it works well with their Dia-Sharp stones. I'm hoping the Shapton holder does an equally good job with their Glass Stones. Anyone have experience with this?

After dealing with the mess created using wet stones I was thinking of getting the Shapton Sharpening Pond. Seems like a nice product. Comments?

Any suggestions in improving my chisel and plane sharpening would be appreciated.

[Archie England]

My initial attempts at preparing/sharpening chisels and plane blades involved the use of extra course, fine and extra fine DMT Dia-Sharp stones and various grits of wet/dry sandpaper using a blanchard ground steel backing plate. I think the results obtained so far have been fairly good but after watching some videos on YouTube, especially those by Rob Cosman I want to kick my sharpening up a notch. Here are some of the improvements I have in mind.

Shapton 16000 grit Glass Stone - Mr. Cosman uses this stone as a final step in sharpening after using a 1000 grit diamond plate. Seems odd that nothing is used in between. Does anyone know what he uses in the final step in flattening the back of chisels?

Shapton stone holder, the heavier one. I have the DMT holder with the magnetic base and it works well with their Dia-Sharp stones. I'm hoping the Shapton holder does an equally good job with their Glass Stones. Anyone have experience with this?

After dealing with the mess created using wet stones I was thinking of getting the Shapton Sharpening Pond. Seems like a nice product. Comments?

Any suggestions in improving my chisel and plane sharpening would be appreciated.

Always love these sharpening threads!

I've stopped at a 13k Sigma stone and the results I achieve are excellent; but, only go to that level when I'm paring end grain or gnarly grain. Otherwise, I'll top out (depending upon my task) somewhere between 6k to 10k.

Regardless of the sharpening medium (oil stones, water stone, diamond plates, sandpaper, etc.), there's only so sharp that makes a difference. Add to this the metal (O1, A2, PMV11, etc) and the type of wood (soft or hard, density, grain type): these impact how sharp the blade needs to be.

In the end, I suggest that if what you're doing works--don't fix it. There's a serious issue of diminishing returns when reaching for that zenith of sharpness.

IMO

[Robert Hazelwood]

Cosman raises the sharpening angle a few degrees when he switches to the 16000, so he's only sharpening a tiny secondary bevel at the very edge. That's how he can jump from 1000 without an intermediate stone.

As for backs, he uses the ruler trick on his plane irons, so it's the same concept as above, polishing a tiny back bevel with the 16000. For chisel you can finish with the 16000, but for initial prep you'll need to work up through some intermediate grits. The diamond stones you have should be adequate, and you can also use sandpaper.

However I would look at other finishing stones, the glass stones seem overpriced for the amount of stone you get. A good 8000-grit or higher stone will be fine, doesn't need to be insanely high grit. Shapton Pros are good and while not cheap, they are thicker and should last longer.

Can't vouch for their stone holder. But I've found that attaching a sheet of non-slip drawer liner to the top of the sharpening bench makes a nice working surface. I just set the stone directly down on it and it doesn't budge.

Can't vouch for shapton's stone pond, either, but I think the concept is good if you don't have a nice sink setup in your shop.

[Frederick Skelly]

Always love these sharpening threads!

In the end, I suggest that if what you're doing works--don't fix it. There's a serious issue of diminishing returns when reaching for that zenith of sharpness. IMO

I agree with Archie. I stop at Shapton 6000, followed by a brief strop with LV green compound. I usually get shavings that are 2/1000ths thick. YMMV.

Fred

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Is there something you cannot do with the edges you are getting now that you are trying to fix, or are you just looking to spend some money? Lots of folks will be happy to help you do that.

George Wilson has posted a lot about diamonds followed by ceramic stones as being a good system. If you have all those diamond stones, you sound like you might be halfway there already.

I keep saying I am going to use my 1000/8000 Norton combination stone until it is worn out. So far, nothing in these sharpening threads that come along has made me change my mind. A strop with a little green crayon compound on it is worth it in my opinion.

[Jim Koepke]

My question to Steve, why do you think your sharpening method needs improvement?

My sharpening improved over time just by doing it and gaining experience.

I agree with Archie. I stop at Shapton 6000, followed by a brief strop with LV green compound. I usually get shavings that are 2/1000ths thick. YMMV.

Fred

Another one who agrees it isn't so much the fineness of the stone as in how it is used. My finest water stone is an 8000 grit from Norton. That and some green compound can bring a blade to a point of making a 0.0002x" shaving:

Fine Shaving 0.0002x?.jpg

After being able to get fine shavings consistently from a sharpening method there isn't a lot of reasons to spend more money to "kick it up a notch."

One change that made my sharpening jump up a notch is to have a permanent sharping station. Before this, setting up to sharpen was a big distraction from the other work at hand. Now if a blade isn't performing its job, a quick few steps to the stones takes care of it. This really didn't change what was being done to sharpen a blade so much as it made it more convenient to address a dulling edge quickly. Some folks keep a strop on the bench to keep an edge going in use.

My sharpening pond is a plastic tub bought for $1 when they were on sale. My shop doesn't have running water. An old milk jug takes care of any water needs. A small automotive car mat holds the stones when in use and keeps the mess contained.

But wait there is more! On the other side of the shop is a set up with oil stones. My shop isn't heated and in the winter my water pond freezes. So even if the shop is like a deep freeze it is still possible to bundle up and get some work done including sharpening.

jtk

[Michael J Evans]

Whenever I see these threads I wonder what I'm missing out on? Being such a novice and not sure I was going to stick with hand tools I was using a harbor freight 600 grit diamond stone followed by strop / honing compound. The edges we're easily shaving hair and I thought that was good enough.

I've recently switched to a combo white / black oil stone. The black side is claimed to be around 1200 ish grit and seems to get an extremely sharp edge.
I can't imagine the edges you guys must produce with a 6,8,16000 grit stones, does the wood just remove itself when it sees your planes coming?

[Jim Koepke]

Whenever I see these threads I wonder what I'm missing out on? Being such a novice and not sure I was going to stick with hand tools I was using a harbor freight 600 grit diamond stone followed by strop / honing compound. The edges we're easily shaving hair and I thought that was good enough.

I've recently switched to a combo white / black oil stone. The black side is claimed to be around 1200 ish grit and seems to get an extremely sharp edge.
I can't imagine the edges you guys must produce with a 6,8,16000 grit stones, does the wood just remove itself when it sees your planes coming?

Howdy Michael, No the wood still needs the blade to get into the act of cutting.

As you may have noticed with shaving hair, sometimes you feel the hair being caught by the blade before it cuts. This is from the uneven edge produced by a stone with large grit. On the other end of shaving is not feeling a thing but noticing after the fact that every hair in a blades path is now gone.

A blade should be able to cleanly pare soft wood end grain after it is sharpened. It shouldn't leave any lines or leave opened areas in the surface. It will be easy to control without having to exert much force. This is a very important part of good joinery.

If this is your experience, you are missing nothing.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

Everyone has opinions about this. Sadly I think the only way to know what is best for you is to try a couple different things.

Eventually you will end up with a regimen that is good enough and convenient enough for you.

[Andy Nichols]

I've been to Rob's handtool class, and on chisel backs we worked our way up the first time around, something like 1000, 8000 then 16000. He does have a video on doing chisels for the first time.

Using his method for plane irons, one can sharpen in seconds, and be back to work in a couple of minutes total. On my really flat irons like LV, LN and IBC, I skip the ruler trick, they are already flat so there's really no need. His sharpening techniques we're truly a revelation for me, had no issues getting sharp, just spent way too much time going from one grit to the next.

The Shapton holder is great, only use it for my 16000, in fact, never use my intermediate stones, except for knifes and new chisels....

Have fun,

Andy

[Archie England]

I'm no professional (but I have spent a lot of money on sharpening unfortunately)....


Sharpness translates into the force of resistance plus the surface testimony left. I can cut end grain with a blade off any of my 1k equivalent methods (Oil stones, ceramic stones, diamond stones, Tormek); but I have to exert a lot of force to shove the blade through the wood's end grain. Upon examination, I can see crushed, bruised (shoved over), or scratchy end grain. At 3k, the chisel requires less force (but still a strong push) and it leaves typically no scratches or unsightly end grain. OTOH, it's still not sleek or fine. At 6k or above, normal end grain begins to exhibit a sheen of sorts. The entire surface is free of scratches and it appears very uniform. Over 6k, the difference for me is how little I have to push the chisel to achieve the result desired.

Very finely honed chisels can leave superb finishes and they don't require great effort to work the wood. Those edges are mostly unneeded in any pounding endeavor. But for cuts in difficult grain or end grain, the sharper the chisel, the better the result. And, typically my chisels stay sharper when I've honed them to a higher level (OTOH, I enjoy working a blade through several stones [not just two]). If I'm hurried for time, however, I'll use a lower stone plus my 6k (or higher).

[Patrick Chase]

However I would look at other finishing stones, the glass stones seem overpriced for the amount of stone you get. A good 8000-grit or higher stone will be fine, doesn't need to be insanely high grit. Shapton Pros are good and while not cheap, they are thicker and should last longer.

The other thing to be aware of is that the Shaptons are "generously specified" in terms of grit #. The Shapton 16000 glass has 0.92 micron abrasive particles. Sigma or Imanishi would rate that as a #10000 stone (and in fact the Sigma 10K is almost exactly the same "true grit" as the Shaton 16K).

The 16K glass stone is $150 for 5 mm of abrasive, or $30/mm. A Sigma 13K is $100 or so for a 25 mm thick stone of slightly larger area (and finer grit - 0.75 um). You're paying a lot and giving up a fair amount of surface refinement for the Shapton name.

[Derek Cohen]

The problem with sharpening threads is that they all end up the same way - a million different methods and recommendations ... proving that everyone is wrong and I am the only one with the secret to the right way to do this!

Steve, you need to consider what type of steel you are sharpening. I believe this to be relevant. The softer steels, such as O1 (including laminated blades, even the Japanese with very hard cutting layers) can be honed on the full face of the bevel. However the harder steels, such as A2 and PM-V11, really need to be sharpened with a microbevel. The microbevel may either be a tiny secondary bevel or it may be a product of honing on the face of a hollow grind.

Generally, secondary bevels are easier to do with a honing guide if you are starting out, or if you have no intention of developing the handskills involved. With the latter, lifting the blade a couple of degrees as you move to the next higher grit, requires some practice to achieve relative accuracy, and for this reason fewer stones are preferred (less error involved).

For those freehand honing directly on the hollow, as I do, the process is made quicker if the hollow is done well. The best hollows are those that leave very little steel to hone, and the edge is straight. A straight edge may not require a coarse stone (eg 1000 grit) to straighten it before moving to a middle stone (eg 6000 grit).

The process is similar when using a honing guide: a straight primary bevel can be more easily converted to a secondary bevel with a middle stone if there is little work to do. This is why grinders such as the Tormek, belt grinders, and dry grinders with CBN wheels score so high - they leave a cleaner and straighter primary bevel. Tormek blade guides, and similar blade holders, such as the Veritas, also facilitate a straighter grind and edge. Excellent work may be done freehanding and with white and pink wheels, but these do require more hand skill.

More commonly, for those starting out, the magic bullet is not a great grinder or the best honing guide or the stones one uses. The magic bullet is knowing what to do, and what to do is to create a wire edge each time you hone a bevel (whether primary, secondary or tertiary). That is a guarantee that you are honing to the edge of the blade, and that is what you MUST do to create a sharp edge. All the above comments are geared towards achieving that wire. Anything less and all you are doing is polishing above the cutting edge. It looks pretty but is dull.

Honing on a full bevel is easiest when the steel is soft, and this is especially important if using the slower cutting media, such as oil stones. I included laminated Japanese blades in this category since the backing layer is often very soft cast iron and the hard cutting later is very thin - essentially the same deal as a honing on a secondary bevel.

Paul Sellers once posted a confronting video in which he sharpened plane blades with a 250 grit and 1000 grit medium. The planes cut. Some (like myself) commented that this was not a true representation of sharpening needs, that is, the wood was soft and straight grained. But the point is that even a low grit can do the job. 16000 grit waterstones are not automatically the answer.

The other recommendation is that what ever you use, use it for one year before you make any further changes. It takes time to get the best out of something.

For the record, I mainly use a worn 600 grit diamond Eze-lap diamond stone (which does not get used until the third honing - and can be delayed longer if I use my hardwood strop more frequently before the blade dulls appreciably), Medium and Ultra-Fine Spyderco ceramic stones, and end with Lee Valley green compound on a hardwood strop. I hollow grind on a 180 grit CBN wheel on a half speed dry grinder. This system has been in place a few years now and I have not wished to change it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dave Zellers]

IMO, every 9 months or so someone should start a sharpening thread here if for no other reason than to coax out the insanely useful information from users like DC above. Different masters at different times will be motivated to consolidate their years (decades?) of knowledge into a few concise sentences for all to absorb, as above. Sharpening, like anything else is not static, it evolves. Diamond stones are rather new, sharpening wise. For that matter, how far back does green compound go? New technologies will never stop coming on the scene. New sharpening ideas might be the most resistant aspect of woodworking simply because sharpening is the oldest aspect of woodworking. The proof in the pudding is the constant refrain to "Find what works and stick with it".

But for someone searching for answers, the best way to 'find what works' is through informative posts like DC's above. Over the last year, by asking questions here, I've gotten pretty good at sharpening using my Shapton and diamond stones. There is ALWAYS room for improvement. Most of that comes from constant effort, but sometimes there are shortcuts to be found from those here farther down the path.

New sharpening threads are awesome. No one is ever 'required' to participate, but when they do, there are always a few hidden gems to be found even for those with completely bald forearms.

[Patrick Chase]

The problem with sharpening threads is that they all end up the same way - a million different methods and recommendations ... proving that everyone is wrong and I am the only one with the secret to the right way to do this!

What Derek is too kind to say is that some of the best woodworkers on this forum (as judged by the work they have shown) also have very simple and un-fashionable sharpening systems. As Derek notes he and George are both using Spyderco stones for honing. Warren uses Arks as far as I can tell, etc.

As Derek also noted it depends a lot on the steels you use, though Spydercos and quality modern synthetic waterstones are similar in that department as they both use Al-Oxide ceramics.