Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 24

Thread: New and Interested in CNC

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Spingfield, MO.
    Posts
    59

    New and Interested in CNC

    Hi, new here made a few posts in Woodshop and Engraver forums.
    I am hoping to build a wood shop in my garage over the next year in the hopes of learning enough to earn $500-$1000 a month income on crafts after expenses and I hope to include a maker space in it for a 3D printer (Unsure which one), Laser engraver/cutter (Trotec or Epilog), and a CNC router (no clue which one, I am not mechanically inclined yet hope to learn all these things as I go and being retired and single I have plenty of free time on my hands)

    I watch lots of YouTube videos and they show a project roughed out then several bit changes during the project to get finer and finer details

    What I can not find explained is when do you change them, do you have to create a whole new program setting for each change since the depth is different? How do you learn what bit to change to for what stage your in on the project? Say carving a 3D figure or a sign with relief graphics?

    sorry for the newbie questions.

    I was told I could have a better chance on earning the $500 - $1000 with a CNC router than I would with the Laser Engraver I want, and it "SEEMS" like the CNC router will be way cheaper to start with.

    Also what would be a good CNC to start with to learnon and grow with? I have been looking at the Nomad 883, Stepcraft and the 5 axis Pocket CNC to start if I learn and like them then move up to a full sized setup.
    Last edited by Edward Henry; 11-18-2016 at 9:14 AM.

  2. #2
    For tool changes, this depends on the program and the user. Two options:

    - write out separate files for each tool. Re-home / verify homing after each toolchange and measure the length of the tool stick out before moving on to the next program (or use depth collars)

    or

    - use a CAM program and comm / control system which will allow one to change tools w/in a single program --- the Nomad 883 Pro w/ MeshCAM does this and has a mechanism for measuring tool length automatically

    For the example you provide, a typical workflow is to do roughing w/ a normal endmill, then switch to fine detailing using a ball end.

    I think the Shapeoko 3 XL is the sweet spot in terms of capabilities, performance and work-area (but that may just be because I couldn't find room at home for an XXL upgrade to my SO3 when I was offered the choice)

    William

    Ob. discl. Carbide 3D part-time support staff

  3. #3
    I'm just a hobbyist, so I haven't looked at this from a production or money making perspective. I use Vcarve Pro and Mach3. I about two steps ahead of you, so I am still learning. I bought a CNCRouterParts machine.

    Anyway, I create a file for each tool. One reason is that the tool lengths wil be different and you have to zero the Z axis after installing a new tool. That works well for me so far. I made an auto-zeroing plate based on info I found on the web (and a script for Mach3 that I modified).

    As for which bit to use...well, bits are expensive, so I only have a few so far (check ToolsToday.com for pricing and tutorials). So, I use what I have. Also, your collet size will determine your tool diam. selection somewhat. I use a 1/4" diam. for lots of stuff. The other factor when routing a 3D surface is time. A tiny little bit will take a lot more time. So, there is a tradeoff. The nice thing about programs like Vcarve is that they show you the result of using a specific tool. That can help you determine the amount of detail you want vs. the time. Your spindle Hp can be a determining factor as well...as is the material, etc. There is a large learning curve, so be ready to learn, test, experiment.

    Something else to consider is the machine accuracy/capability. I went with the CNCRouterParts machine because it appeared to be just beyond what I thought I might do - that gives me some wiggle room. I'm not familiar with the machines you mentioned. One thing I did was red the forums for the machines I was interested in. I picked one that there were very few "problem" posts! Building and tweaking the machine is not a hobby to me - I want to make stuff.

    You might try downloading some sample software to play with. You can learn a lot doing that (Vcarve has a demo version- maybe others too?). The ToolsToday videos are pretty good about displaying the tools used (of course they are - they want you to buy them!).

    Anyway, good luck with your new adventure. I'm still learning. I have had my machine running since August I think. Oh, don't forget to consider all of the associated costs beyond the cost of the machine - base, software, tools, dust collection, spindle(?), etc. etc.

    Tony

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Spingfield, MO.
    Posts
    59
    Thank you Tony this is good information.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Spingfield, MO.
    Posts
    59
    Thanks your reply is very informative, I have been considering a Shapeoko 3 XXL (looking at largest for room to grow) so much to learn.

  6. #6
    My advice (non-cnc specific) is to quantify your market/demand/product before you invest in tooling and equipment. That is a backwards approach if your true goal is to make money. If on the other hand you are interested in the hobby/fun, tool acquisition, aspect and the possibility of making some money is a bonus, things get different. Buying a piece of equipment you want and THEN trying to make money with it isnt really the best approach if your main goal is the 500-1000/mo.. Its much easier to analyze your market and see if the products you think you will be making will be in-demand, and moreso, whether your capacity will be able to make them profitably.

    If your leaning towards the craft market you are going to be competing with a lot of people in the second camp. Those who have some tools, have a shop they've setup over time, and enjoy working in the shop and making things and if they make a few bucks so be it. This means you may well be competing against people who are willing to work for $5 an hour and many for less than that just because they enjoy it. Thats all well and good but when you've got the overhead of your CNC/Laser/3D printer, and you begin to quantify what it cost you to just turn the the lights on in the shop you may wish you'd stuck with a more basic set of tools.

    People come in to the shop all the time wanting some decorative items whipped out on the CNC but when you tally a touch of programming (usually at a loss) and the actual cost per-minute of machine time to run the part, they can go to Walmart and buy the item for 1/4 of what you would need to barely stay afloat making it.

    Just my $0.02 that buying the equipment THEN figuring out what your market is, is completely backwards. Times are changing. Quantifying your market ahead of time more important than ever it seems. For instance, today is a bit of a bitter day for me in that my local glass shop that I have been loyal to for 16 years now because I like to support local business, got their clocks cleaned from an on-line wholesale supplier of tempered glass. Nearly half the price and delivered right to our shop door where as I would have to go and pickup from the local guys. I have always willingly paid more to shop local and have service, but double the money is just not possible.

    Hobby fun is one thing, but if your ultimate goal is profit, do the math first.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Spingfield, MO.
    Posts
    59
    Trying to decide between the Shapeoko 3 XXL which I can almost afford now but worry if I am able to assemble, or the CNC Shark HD4 or HD4 Extended which I would have to save longer for but is mostly shipped assembled and is supposed to be a sturdier machine, or a stepcraft with auto tool changer.

    Also was wondering if while I am waiting are there any CNC simulator software that I could use to actually help me learn CNC routing prior to getting one?

    I have no real clear idea what I want to do with a CNC other than it interests me.
    Last edited by Edward Henry; 01-04-2017 at 9:37 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Hayes, Virginia
    Posts
    14,759
    If your goal is to make money buy a CAMaster or a small ShopBot. Forget the small hobby machines, they will disappoint you when you realize that they are not commercial quality machines, they are fine for hobby work but they just won't hold up when you decide you need to run several hours per day.

    To start learning right away download the Vectric VCarve Pro software, it will answer most of your questions about the software side of CNC work and it is very easy to use.

    Read every thread in this Forum.
    Visit the CAMaster Forum.
    Visit the ShopBot Forum.

    When your brain is overloaded from all of the information you will wade through read my first two sentences above again.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Deep South
    Posts
    3,970
    I use the Camaster Stinger 1 in its basic configuration. It still isn't cheap but I have run it for whole days many times over three years and all I have ever done to it is clean and lubricate per specifications. The only thing I am worried about is wearing out the Porter Cable router. I very much doubt a less expensive machine would hold up without some kind or repair or adjustment.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Keith Outten View Post
    To start learning right away download the Vectric VCarve Pro software, it will answer most of your questions about the software side of CNC work and it is very easy to use.

    Read every thread in this Forum.
    Visit the CAMaster Forum.
    Visit the ShopBot Forum.
    +1 Good info there. Vcarve Pro is definitely the software you want to get. Their upgrade policy is fantastic. You only pay the extra price difference. Fantastic software.

  11. #11
    For a CNC Simulator, if you use Windows, there's a free 3D simulator for the entire machine listed on the front page of the Shapeoko wiki, GrblGru --- it allows one to load a 3D model of other machines, so isn't limited to just the Shapeoko.

    It's a great way to get started w/ CNC, and I suggest that anyone interested in CNC go through the motions of:

    - drawing up a project
    - doing CAM on it
    - puzzling out workholding for the part
    - simulating it

    before investing in a machine --- some people just don't like the disconnect from the raw materials --- it's one of the reasons I prefer one-off jobs by hand to using my CNC machines (but I haul them out for any tedious or repetitive task).

  12. #12
    I did exactly what your looking to do in the last year and I will give you my take. Full disclosure I'm an engineer with over 20 years of experience in machine design and 2D/3D Software Design so I have a huge leg up on people just starting out with no mechanical/software background.

    Preordered a Shapeoko 3 and VCarve Desktop. Great way to learn without investing too much into the initial start up. Made some signs, learned how to maintain a machine and made a lot of mistakes that I learned from. Then bought a Routakit HD that I still use today as it is 48"x36". Bigger but same principle as Shapeoko. Gave me more capability and really built my business.

    Saved every penny I made that I didn't reinvest on future jobs and purchased a used Shopbot Desktop. Total game changer, faster, quieter, more reliable and another great forum like the Shapeoko to bounce ideas off of. Glad I gained the experience on the Shapeoko but wish I had just bought this machine first way back when.

    Fast forward to now and the Routakit HD and Shopbot are about to pay towards a shiny new Trotec Speedy that should be ordered next week. I bought and sold off the 3D printer, just too slow and finicky and no market to make money. I sold to a guy in town who does the printing for a good price and he helps me out in the rare instance I need to use one.

    If money is a huge concern go the Shapeoko route and VCarve route. If you have the cash just skip it and move right to a Shopbot, CAMaster or equivalent.

    *After writing this it sounds super optimistic like anyone can do this. Just remember by starting your own business your giving up your nights, weekends, family time, etc to make this happen. Especially if you have a full time job!*
    Last edited by Atonwa Cook; 01-08-2017 at 12:40 PM.
    Shopbot Desktop

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Southwest Missouri
    Posts
    77
    Sent private message

    Ed
    probitix cnc Corel x3, Vcarve pro6.0, Aspire4.0

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Spingfield, MO.
    Posts
    59
    First off thank you all for your replies, sorry I been away but life got in the way.

    My initial goal as I learn is small projects like wood projects for gifts For friends and family, custom wood plaques/awards for my local pickleball club, eventually build a Cessna cockpit for my flight sim. As I improve it would be nice to earn a few extra bucks but I have no delusions that I will learn it well enough to pay for the equipment or make a living. This will just be a hobby to help me relax but I also do not want a small tabletop system, I want one I can learn on and grow with but IF I find it too difficult to learn I want it high enough quality that I can sell it later if need be with minimal hassle.

    I am a uneducated beginner where CNC Routers, Laser engraver/cutters, and 3D printing are concerned how ever I have a burning desire to learn. Oh and I am terrible at math, hoping there are apps or calculators to help me. Such as what speeds to run what bits and such.

    Just to show my ignorance I am looking at 2 systems, 1 has a resolution of 0.0005 the other 0.00125 in real world applications how noticeable is the difference?

    I will admit to "dreaming of using this to earn an extra $500-$1000 a month for spending money but that is a dream not reality as I have no skill, knowledge, or self confidence in my ability. I live alone with my Service Dog so no worries on disappointing a wife with my hobby desires.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    In the foothills of the Sandia Mountains
    Posts
    16,614
    Are you sure you have the decimal in the right place? Both those numbers are unrealistic in any but the most elite CNC routers - if even that. Please provide a link.
    IMO, common machine shop machining centers would have trouble maintaining those tolerances. Camaster's top of the line Cobra has a claimed repeatability of +/- .002.
    +/- .002 is about what I get with my Camaster Stinger.

    Basic math skills are good to have but decent cad/cam software will do most of the figuring for you.

    There are a number of speed & feed calculators available as well as chip load calculators.
    Please help support the Creek.


    "It's paradoxical that the idea of living a long life appeals to everyone, but the idea of getting old doesn't appeal to anyone."
    Andy Rooney



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •