Lie Nielsen Bronze Planes?

[Steve Mathews]

After reading the thread about the LN Bronze 4 1/2 and reviewing the LN website in preparation to buy a 5 1/2 I noticed that the 1 thru 4 planes are only offered in bronze. What is the reason for this? Why are the higher number planes only offered in iron? And lastly, why is there a disproportionate jump in price from the iron 4 1/2 and bronze 4 1/2?

[Mike Brady]

Apparently larger planes are challenging to cast in bronze due to the shrinkage factor of bronze as it cools in the molds. This variance leads to castings that are off-spec and have to be scrapped. The 4-1/2 are right at that limit, as were the No. 9 planes they once made. As an aside, I have found some criticism of the bronze planes being too ​heavy. My planes are all iron so I can't say from experience, but the 4-1/2 in bronze is a load when combined with the wide iron and a high angle frog.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

The No. 4 has the option for bronze or iron. This used to be the case for the 2 and 3 as well. Maybe it's a glitch in their site, but I no longer see that option for the 2 and 3. I would suspect that if they no longer offer them in iron it is likely they chose to streamline their production. With the small difference in price I would imagine the bronze sold much better. Perhaps they decided to only make the bronze. This is merely my speculation.

The 4 1/2 bronze is a limited production run. There is a much higher cost associated with limited runs. You still have to make the plug and mould (which would be different from the ones used for iron due to different shrinkage rates) and you also would have a failure factor of pours that did not meet specifications. In order to make a profit you would need to raise the price to cover the cost. That said- also the earlier model 4 1/2 bronze planes have kept their value and (a) I am sure they didn't want to anger earlier purchasers, and (b) if people will buy at that price- go for it. These two points are also speculation in my behalf.

The reason for the larger planes being offered in only iron is due to weight, cost, and difficulty of making that large of a casting in bronze. Thomas Lie-Nielsen has said before that there would not likely be any larger bronze planes because the benefit is diminished and the cost increases. The 4 1/2 bronze weighs around a pound heavier than the iron model. Imagine a No. 8 bronze! You would need arms like Popeye to use it.

[Patrick Chase]

After reading the thread about the LN Bronze 4 1/2 and reviewing the LN website in preparation to buy a 5 1/2 I noticed that the 1 thru 4 planes are only offered in bronze.

The 4 is offered in both bronze and iron.

What is the reason for this? Why are the higher number planes only offered in iron? And lastly, why is there a disproportionate jump in price from the iron 4 1/2 and bronze 4 1/2?

The L-N bronze planes are significantly heavier than the iron ones. A bronze #8 would be unwieldy even if it could be manufactured.

Manganese-Bronze and iron have fairly similar densities (both within a couple percent of 8 g/cc) so it appears that the castings for the bronze planes are thicker. That might be a consequence of some manufacturing issue as Mike suggested, or it might be preference.

[Steve Mathews]

Interesting replies to the bronze versus iron but I'm somewhat skeptical about LNs intentions and can't help to think that there's some marketing hype involved in their bronze offerings. Has any other manufacturer made bronze planes?

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Interesting replies to the bronze versus iron but I'm somewhat skeptical about LNs intentions and can't help to think that there's some marketing hype involved in their bronze offerings. Has any other manufacturer made bronze planes?

I'm not sure what the hype would be. It is a superior material overall due to the rust resistance- and it looks cool. I think the sell is just that and not really "hype." Veritas briefly made a bronze shoulder plane and there are specialty makers that make bronze planes.

*edit: ...except with the bronze 4 1/2 there may be some hype with the limited production. The previous limited productions they broke the moulds... Supposedly... Yet now there it is again. I believe it is a way to add $ to the price. With the others the difference is reasonable and justifiable. With this one it is quite a gap. As I said in my other response, there are additional costs per item when doing a limited run, but goodness- double?

[Steve Mathews]

I'm not sure what the hype would be. It is a superior material overall due to the rust resistance- and it looks cool. I think the sell is just that and not really "hype." Veritas briefly made a bronze shoulder plane and there are specialty makers that make bronze planes.

*edit: ...except with the bronze 4 1/2 there may be some hype with the limited production. The previous limited productions they broke the moulds... Supposedly... Yet now there it is again. I believe it is a way to add $ to the price. With the others the difference is reasonable and justifiable. With this one it is quite a gap. As I said in my other response, there are additional costs per item when doing a limited run, but goodness- double?

Hype = "looks cool", limited production, limited edition, commemorative, collector, anything that adds to the price of the tool that doesn't improve its function. I don't know what category to place the bronze construction but rust resistance doesn't make the plane perform any better based on what I'm reading. If additional weight is a consideration why couldn't LN add more material to their iron planes?

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Hype = "looks cool", limited production, limited edition, commemorative, collector, anything that adds to the price of the tool that doesn't improve its function. I don't know what category to place the bronze construction but rust resistance doesn't make the plane perform any better based on what I'm reading. If additional weight is a consideration why couldn't LN add more material to their iron planes?

Don't overthink it. If you don't want it, Clifton makes nice iron planes. For me, rust resistance does improve performance. It glides better if it isn't rusty, and where I live rust is a constant battle. Within reason I will always spring for the bronze. The 4 1/2 isn't within reason.

[Frederick Skelly]

Interesting replies to the bronze versus iron but I'm somewhat skeptical about LNs intentions and can't help to think that there's some marketing hype involved in their bronze offerings. Has any other manufacturer made bronze planes?

You know they're a very reputable firm, right? If you doubt their good intent in offering bronze, why not pick up the phone and politely ask them your questions? I'll bet that most of the reasons they give you will make good sense, and you can discard the ones you don't believe. But at least give them a chance to answer you directly Steve.

Then it would be great for all of us to hear what you've learned.

Thanks,
Fred

[Steve Mathews]

You know they're a very reputable firm, right? If you doubt their good intent in offering bronze, why not pick up the phone and politely ask them your questions? I'll bet that most of the reasons they give you will make good sense, and you can discard the ones you don't believe. But at least give them a chance to answer you directly Steve.

Then it would be great for all of us to hear what you've learned.

Thanks,
Fred

Well said Fred. I have no reason to believe they are not a reputable firm. I'm just skeptical about their bronze offerings and how they're marketed. But you're correct, I should be asking these questions to them directly as well. The comments provided here provide good background material.

[Todd Stock]

It's a well known fact that Lie-Nielsen's fascination with massive bronze bench planes was inspired by Sir Planes-A-Lot's 1992 hit, 'Galoot's Got Heft'

I like big planes and I cannot lie
You other craftsmen can't deny
That when a dude walks in with a heavy, heavy tool
Puts a bronze thing in your face
You get young, wanna work all tough
Cause you notice that A2 was stuffed
Deep in the Four he's bearing
I'm hooked and I can't stop staring

Anyway, the song goes into great detail on the unique character of planes of greater mass and their salubrious effect on inspiring greater efforts from woodworkers.

[Frederick Skelly]

Now that was creative and fun to read! Might have to put it on the wall in my shop. Thanks Todd!

[James Pallas]

Does the bronze act like an anode and sacrifice itself for the steel parts?
Jim

[Robert LaPlaca]

Steve, bronze is heavier than cast iron, the heavier material is a benefit for the smaller planes, it would be unwieldy in the larger planes. Additionally, IIRC bronze planes are not machined after casting, so it's harder to produce a bronze version of a larger plane, hence the additional cost of the bronze planes..

I have a bronze LN #4 that LOML bought for me and like it a lot..

[Patrick Chase]

Steve, bronze is heavier than cast iron, the heavier material is a benefit for the smaller planes, it would be unwieldy in the larger planes. Additionally, IIRC bronze planes are not machined after casting, so it's harder to produce a bronze version of a larger plane, hence the additional cost of the bronze planes..

I have a bronze LN #4 that LOML bought for me and like it a lot..

Bronze actually isn't much heavier than Iron. The Mn-Bronze alloys typically used in castings range in density from 7.8-8.3 g/cc. Cast ductile iron is about 7.1 g/cc. That isn't enough to explain all of the weight difference between L-N's iron and bronze planes, so I suspect that the bronze castings are also a bit thicker.