Question about copyright

[AL Ursich]

When I was first starting to learn about Engraving while still working at Sony in Bensalem, PA just down the street was the Croydon Train Station. Not too far from there was a Vinyl Shop I took interest in but never visited. I was going to Atlantic City to ARA Shows for a few years learning about Sublimation and Lasers and Copyright..

The Shop closed and I asked the Texaco guy next door what happened.... The story goes that he made a 12 foot Harley banner and at a show the customer was asked "Where did you get THAT..." The customer handed the guy a Business Card.

Harley took the shop and all the equipment was smashed and put in a dumpster.... Not sure why they took the shop? Don't know how much he did. At least that is the story I was told in early 2001 or so...

In a Sign Magazine in a story about "Call before you DIG" was a quote.... "Many a Fiber Optic Cable Company have closed Sign Shops.... "

I always remembered it when I was asked many times to do Harley Stuff....

[Mike Null]

I don't do Harleys for any reason and I have had some motorcycle guys a little upset but I firmly believe Harley has bounty hunters out there.

[Scott Shepherd]

In a Sign Magazine in a story about "Call before you DIG" was a quote.... "Many a Fiber Optic Cable Company have closed Sign Shops.... "

I know the feeling. We had an outdoor sign to install, had Miss Utility called, they marked the site, we dug and I felt my heart skip a beat when the guy with me says he hit something. 600 pair phone line. No mark on the grass for it. I cleared the dirt away and sure enough, there were a few bundles of wire cut. I called a friend who dealt with stuff like that and he told me that he was in the middle of an issue where someone in the Washington DC area had hit a fiber cable. They were liable for millions of dollars. The fiber went to a massive office building and there was a huge call center there. It shut them down until it was repaired so they were liable for all the lost wages, etc. from all the down time of all the businesses they impacted. He had me sweating. Luckily, we had insurance.

Then, after finally getting all the right people there, it wasn't our fault, it wasn't marked and we had been cleared to dig, and Verizon said it was an abandoned line, that's why it didn't get marked. It'll get your attention for sure.

[Joseph Shawa]

Apparently I am a lawsuit waiting to happen. Fortunately I don't do that type of work; mostly personal stuff. That said, when someone emails me a professional looking family photo then it would in my best interest to NOT do the job. If fact, how would you trust that items were not copyrighted unless you designed them yourself or they were simply lettering. Even in the case of lettering you have to make sure the font isn't protected. Do you do all that? The best and most reasonable way to stay in business is to make sure you get a letter stating that the design is NOT copyrighted and then just pray.

[John Lifer]

I know that in MS they have gotten really aggressive with the call before you dig. State law allowing a fine, I think it was a thousand dollars.... I haven't heard anything like that up here in AR, guess it's too rocky..

[Dave Sheldrake]

Even in the case of lettering you have to make sure the font isn't protected. Do you do all that?

Yes, I do, that's why I pay lawyers a considerable amount of money on retainer to make sure that I don't end up joining people I helped put in prison in a previous career as I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be too pleased to see me anytime soon.

[Scott Shepherd]

If fact, how would you trust that items were not copyrighted unless you designed them yourself or they were simply lettering. Even in the case of lettering you have to make sure the font isn't protected. Do you do all that? The best and most reasonable way to stay in business is to make sure you get a letter stating that the design is NOT copyrighted and then just pray.

It's called being a responsible business owner. You do the right thing. If your business model relies on using other people's work without their consent or compensation, then you don't have a very good business model. I've had people bring us professionally taken portraits to engrave. Sorry, no can do without the permission of the photographer, unless you bought the rights to them, which very few people do.

How'd you like it if you put a photo on the internet and someone took that photo and created products from it and made profits without your permission or compensation to you?

[Mike Null]

Steve
That's a particularly good example and one that I have confronted with even more frequency than trademarks. It is quite common for people to believe that because they paid for the photo it was theirs to do as they wish.

[Gary Hair]

Yes, I do, that's why I pay lawyers a considerable amount of money on retainer to make sure that I don't end up joining people I helped put in prison in a previous career as I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be too pleased to see me anytime soon.

Oh, I bet they would be very happy to see you...

[Dave Sheldrake]

Oh, I bet they would be very happy to see you...

hahahahahaha probably I don't get the feeling I would enjoy my new life though

[Bob WrightNC]

Talked to a shop owner about a month ago that was telling me about going to the retail gift market and buying some product with licensed logos on them. She bought six of these items. Turns out the product was unlicensed and the license owner determined the manufacturer wasn't solvent, so they went after the gift shop for selling unlicensed product. They settled for $50,000 and she was glad to get out of it for that amount. $50,000 for less than a couple hundred bucks of product. Six pieces to be exact. She had tears in her eyes telling me about it.

[Kev Williams]

I read some these stories and quite frankly, I have to raise the BS flag on some of them. The story about the Harley banner, that would've made news- I searched it out, found zilch. Not saying it didn't happen but I'm skepical. Because during that search I did find literally dozens different reports of Harley suing for infringement, and the vast majority of them stated they had issued cease and desist orders, or were suing simply to stop the infringement, NOT for everything someone owns just to destroy it out of spite. Harley has of course been awarded monetary damages, but in these cases (that I found) the infringer was knowingly and blatantly manufacturing and selling counterfeit goods. This is is bit different from someone UNknowingly buying a few hundred bucks worth unlicensed goods and reselling them. This is grounds for a cease and desist order, not a $50k settlement. And it's not like Harley is so innocent: http://ghiplaw.com/lawsuit-filed-aga...-infringement/

I was hit with trademark infringement about 12 years ago, and during the same period a customer of mine was also hit. We both got cease and desist letters. I ceased and desisted, my customer, who sells over $40k a month worth of the same company's other items, told them fine, but he'll stop selling their items and just sell $40k's worth of someone else's stuff a month. They changed their tune, haven't bothered him since. Ironically, the stuff he sells that "infringes" (debatable)... I think I'll digress

and just yesterday I was hit with a C&D from the ATF, they sited that I was breaking the law since

your firearms activity appears to bring you within the definition of a GUNSMITH OF FIREARMS as that term is defined by the Gun Control Act . A person engages in business as a GUNSMITH in firearms by devoting time, attention and labor to engaging in such activity as a REGULAR COURSE OF TRADE OR BUSINESS [<remember this] with the principal objective of livelihood and profit. See 18 USC sec. 921(a)(21)(C)

Of course, they conveniently left OFF a significant, and very important section of the same law they're using against me-- Sections (C) as referenced above (definition of a DEALER), and also section (D) below (definition of a GUNSMITH) reads at the end:

A person engages business as a GUNSMITH....with the principal objective of livelihood and profit BUT SUCH TERM (gunsmith) SHALL NOT INCLUDE A PERSON WHO MAKES OCCASIONAL REPAIRS OF FIREARMS, OR WHO OCCASIONALLY FITS SPECIAL BARRELS, STOCKS, OR TRIGGER MECHANISMS TO FIREARMS; (note that by definition, 'engraving' is included in the definition of a gunsmith.

Get that? If I'm only OCCASIONALLY engraving firearms, I am specifically NOT defined as a GUNSMITH! And this is EXACTLY why Nathan Palmer of our local ATF joint told me 3 years ago that I COULD LEGALLY ENGRAVE GUNS.

But that didn't stop 2 ATF agents from 'setting me straight' yesterday. And as they walked around my shop, they found dozens of various SS plates, a few hundred lamacoid labels awaiting tape, 3 cases of SS radiator covers, about 15 aluminum operator panels in progress, a hundred AB legend plates I'm working on, 2 dozen green lamacoid 'start' buttons, shelves and cubbies loaded with lazersteel, brass, trophy aluminum, countless sheets of Rowmark, a couple dozen motorcycle seat leathers, 100 or so Jetway buttons, 50 or so AV cases the fiber is engraving, an "enter here" sign, some urns, couple of dozen boxes of glass awards, about 500 cowbells, couple of cases of aluminum alloy trays, some stainless trays, about 4 cases of small flashlights and Gerber knives, some brass police badges, a dozen or so rings I need to learn to engrave on the fiber, 2 cases of wood earring and watch boxes---

--and all of ONE AR lower, and TWO shotgun receivers, that remain un-engraved, awaiting the owners to pick them up.

I triple dog dare ANYONE to prove I'm anything BUT an "occasional" engraver of firearms! If I fought this, I would likely win, the law as written is clear....Or, is it, and could I? I've also found some rulings that simply state "if you engrave what we call a firearm, you need a license". But, that's a 'ruling', not a 'law'. And I found another ruling that seems to contradict the last one. The simple fact is, the end result of any legal action is all dependent on how the person(s) with the final say interprets the law. Or the ruling...?

Which is the whole point of my mini-novel here: don't believe everything you read, see or hear when it comes to legal issues, especially those requiring a license or permission to keep someone from suing you or throwing your butt in jail. If you're not sure if you need a license, chances are you do (even if you don't ) Safest route is to just play it safe. And if someone DID actually pay someone $50 large over a few hundred bucks worth of 'innocent infringement', they either didn't have a lawyer, or the one they had was in on the scam. I would love to see some actual news reports on these stories, I'm okay with being proven wrong!

.

.

[Scott Shepherd]

Kev, ask them to define "Significant". My first contact with the ATF prior to engraving a single gun, lead the ATF agent to tell me that the rules said that it must be a SIGNIFICANT part of our business. He said that unfortunately, no where in any of their documentation was "Significant" defined. So that left the door open for people to do the work and not have a FFL. He said, in his opinion, that if it were 10% or less of your business, then he thought you'd be fine and not need a FFL, but he couldn't legally recommend that.

Good luck with that. Like you said, fight it and win, or wave the white flag and move forward. I would agree with them, if you had a lower in your possession that didn't belong to you, then you've taken possession of a firearm and you need a FFL to do that. However, if the guy was sitting in the corner, waiting for you to do it while he waited, then I'd say you would have been perfectly fine.

Best thing at this point is just apply for the FFL and carry on. It's simple, and the logging of items is simple, and then you have nothing to worry about.

[Dave Sheldrake]

https://www.devonnewscentre.info/onl...terfeit-goods/

https://www.westminster.gov.uk/tradi...mpic-toy-bears

http://www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/en...punishment.htm

Have fun, the following is just Wrexham (A tiny area of the UK)

• October 2009 at Mold Crown Court 2 Wolverhampton men received 100 hours community punishment each, and 12 weeks imprisonment suspended for 2 years for selling counterfeit clothing at Chirk Car Boot Sale. Case referred for Proceeds of Crime Investigation resulting in confiscation order in excess of £50,000.
• July 2009 at Mold Crown Court. Wrexham man jailed for 9 months for sale and possession of counterfeit clothing in the People’s Market, Wrexham. Case referred for Proceeds of Crime Investigation.
• November 2008 at Mold Crown Court. Stockport man jailed for 6 months for sale and possession of counterfeit clothing at Chirk Car Boot Sale. Case referred for Proceeds of Crime Investigation resulting in confiscation order in excess of £50,000.
• November 2008 at Wrexham Magistrates Court. 3 months curfew order imposed on Wrexham man for selling counterfeit DVDs in a public house.
• October 2008 at Mold Crown Court. Wrexham man received a 20 week prison sentence, suspended for two years and placed on supervision for 2 years. Also made subject of a 3 month curfew. Case referred for Proceeds of Crime Investigation resulting in confiscation order in excess of £3,000.
• June 2007 at Mold Crown Court. Wrexham man received 6 months imprisonment, suspended for 2 years, and sentenced to 200 hours community service for sale and possession of counterfeit CDs and MP3s. The case was referred for Proceeds of Crime Investigation resulting in confiscation order of £20,000.
• December 2006 at Birmingham Crown Court. Wrexham man jailed for 12 months for involvement in conspiracy to supply counterfeit DVDs via the internet.

[John Lifer]

Kev, I'm with Scott, if you want to continue with engraving gun parts. Spend the $200 and the time to get fingerprint cards done, picture taken and a couple hours for paperwork. Send it all in and then in a few months, spend an hour or so with the ATF rep reviewing your application. Nod your head a lot, then wait for another month or two to get the license. Log any guns you keep overnight. Only give back to person who gave to you in the first place. Give them a bit more money every 3 years. And for sure stay legal this way......