Veritas combination plane.

[Simon MacGowen]

You clearly use your 45 well Steven. That dig was a bit unnecessary though!

Dig...what dig? He was helping keep the thread alive and INTERESTING, and secretly Veritas could be happy about him doing that. Free advertising and drawing people to the thread.

However, his "dislike" of the modernized 45 (whether it is Veritas or, later, LN - by the way, keep waiting LN fans out there) did remind me of the posts I saw on threads about SawStop. Many people who had never touched or used a SS (other than watching the hot dog demos online or in person) would opine how "other" saws were better than the SS, except - they would add - the finger saving feature.

Simon

[steven c newman]

Here is another thought....I did strop the cutter when I started this project.....that is how many grooves ago.....and I am ploughing through a lot of Maple....haven't felt the need to yank it back out and refresh the edge. Maybe when I start the next project? Not sure what steel Stanley up at Roxton Pond,Que. Canada. That cutter was from the 1920s SW era. And came with the plane. As did 23 out of the 26 cutters I have.

I did a mental count of the "knobs" on the 45 I have.....14. Maybe I should have them all brass plated?

[Hilton Ralphs]

Good article on combination plane blades, curved or flat.

[Chet R Parks]

Hilton,
Great article, thanks for sharing.
Chet

[Rob Lee]

Hi,

A few general comments on some of the statements in this thread.

Planes and prices...Stanley made hundreds of thousands of Planes....Veritas and Lie-Nielsen make hundreds, and rarely thousands. Everything we make is closer to bespoke, than mass production. They cost what they cost... and I make no apologies for prices.

Blades.....I knew that our blades would be dear, which is why we made our plane compatible with Stanley and Record blades. You can pick up a set of blades ( with or without a plane) for probably $100-150, depending on condition. You will have to spend a lot of time lapping, and making them usable. Yes...they will be flat, concave, and convex. O1 warps when hardened. Manufacturers (well, those that know what they're doing, anyway) will ensure blades are oriented before grinding the bevel so that blades will be concave relative to bedding surface. Ours are flat, and lapped. All of them.

PM-V11 choice....it hardens with better dimensional stability than O1, and retains an edge much longer. For complex profiles, we think it is the best choice. It would not be economic to produce them in multiple materials.

I saw the first batch of planes running through assembly a week ago, before I left for vacation. I believe we are just waiting on boxes before we begin to ship orders.

FWIW, people's preferences are what they are - that's what keeps manufacturing going.

Cheers,

Rob

[Jim Koepke]

I saw the first batch of planes running through assembly a week ago, before I left for vacation. I believe we are just waiting on boxes before we begin to ship orders.

To me that says a lot about the confidence of management in their organization when they go on vacation as a new product launches.

Enjoy your vacation Rob.

I am sure a lot of folks who preordered will be waiting on their porches waiting for their delivery trucks to pull up.

I am looking forward to seeing the finished product and people's comments.

jtk

[Simon MacGowen]

To me that says a lot about the confidence of management in their organization when they go on vacation as a new product launches.

jtk

Good point. Autopilot button (must be brassplated) pressed before Robin headed for the airport...

Anyone know how much time Veritas spent on developing this new plane?

Simon

[James Pallas]

My 45 gets used on nearly every project. It is one of the most useful tools I have. It takes some time investment to learn its set up. I would like to own the new Veritas plane. I would guess that it would work every bit as good as my 45 and very likely better. I'm a big fan of Veritas products and have been more than pleased with their performance. I own Lie Neilsen planes as well and I'm just as pleased with those products. I also own Stanley and Sargent. I'm no expert but in my shop the newer tools work better and easier then the older stuff. YMMV of course.
Jim

[Noah Magnuson]

I don't think Derek is always wrong, but he may be mistaken on this score. I looked at all the planes I have, a 46, 45 and 55. They do indeed all have curved blades, and they are all curved the same way. That is, when you place the blade on the skate, there is a hollow in the center of the back side of the blade. As Steve suggests, when the tapered bolt that holds the cutter is tightened, the blade is flattened to the skate and held under tension. Interestingly, I've always thought that the belly was a product of heat treating the blades and not due to a deliberate design feature. Further, I have an early japanned number 50, and as most know it's blade holding mechanism is not the same as the others, in that the entire blade is clamped from both sides and held tight by a wing nut and bolt. That blade is absolutely flat. Very curious and great catch Steve.

The photo is below. There is an early japanned style 46 blade on the bottom of both photos. The upper photo has an early floral plated 45 cutter on top, and on the bottom photo is a 1900 era 55 cutter on top. Cutters placed to double the curve for clarity. (look at the bevels).

Attachment 364506

PS. I just watched the youtube video again, and it looks like the large plow has a pivoting lever cap sort of like the Stanley 78. As such, I'm not sure the curved blade matters, as it will be clamped near the edge where the cutting happens and at the top, making it pretty chatter free, just like the 78. An interesting observation on the older planes though, none the less.

I have one full set of 55s, and they are all this way to some degree or another. There is evidence that they were heat treated to make the bend. It also appears like it was done by hand and is not consistent in degree, only the direction of bend.

I have another full set of 55s that is dead flat. Interesting.

[Ray Selinger]

That's sneaky , a comment about a SawStop, and in this hand tool forum.

[Patrick Chase]

Planes and prices...Stanley made hundreds of thousands of Planes....Veritas and Lie-Nielsen make hundreds, and rarely thousands. Everything we make is closer to bespoke, than mass production. They cost what they cost... and I make no apologies for prices.

Thanks for the thorough reply!

To be clear, I don't think anybody was trying to imply that your plane is overpriced relative to its likely cost (including amortized up-front costs) or that you should be apologetic. LV obviously makes large up-front investments in development and testing, and as you say you don't have economies of scale to work with. I know that you won't be able to discuss this, but the specific concern was that today's soft-ish used market might make for challenging economics for any manufacturer, and particularly for one committed to going out the door with a thoroughly developed and debugged product like LV.

Of course I'll end up buying one, because I like shiny new toys and I particularly enjoy tools that have been as extensively thought through, tested, and developed as yours.

Blades.....I knew that our blades would be dear, which is why we made our plane compatible with Stanley and Record blades. You can pick up a set of blades ( with or without a plane) for probably $100-150, depending on condition. You will have to spend a lot of time lapping, and making them usable. Yes...they will be flat, concave, and convex. O1 warps when hardened. Manufacturers (well, those that know what they're doing, anyway) will ensure blades are oriented before grinding the bevel so that blades will be concave relative to bedding surface. Ours are flat, and lapped. All of them.

I had come to the same conclusion, though I decided to get my set of blades with a #55, since I want to see if there's really such a thing as a plane that's too gadget-y for me :-).

I also agree that PM-V11 is a good choice for this. Combination plane irons are used bevel-down at 45 deg, so the fact that O1 might be preferable at ultra low edge angle is irrelevant. As you say ease of sharpening is less of a factor for complex geometries, where sharpening is inherently harder in any metal. Edge life trumps all in that regime.

[Rob Lee]

Hi Patrick,

No worries here....I just like to point out that there are all sorts of assumptions when it comes to pricing, and the reality is - we're all pretty small operations compared to historical precedents.

I'm a big fan of used tools - and good ones will last many lifetimes. At the same time, there is still the opportunity to improve and adapt for the work people do today.

Cheers,

Rob

[Patrick Chase]

Good point. Autopilot button (must be brassplated) pressed before Robin headed for the airport...

Anyone know how much time Veritas spent on developing this new plane?

Simon

Based on experience as a mechanical engineer in product development, and the degree to which LV typically develops/refines their tools, I'd guess that it was at least 3 years and probably more.

There were far enough along last February (18 months before intro) to define the skate change to the Small Plow and release the beading blades. I expect that it would have taken at least another 18 months before that to get to the point in the Combo plane development where they would be confident enough of the design to commit to those changes.

[Simon MacGowen]

Thanks for satisfying the curious mind.

Simon

[Jim Koepke]

My 45 gets used on nearly every project. It is one of the most useful tools I have. It takes some time investment to learn its set up. I would like to own the new Veritas plane. I would guess that it would work every bit as good as my 45 and very likely better. I'm a big fan of Veritas products and have been more than pleased with their performance. I own Lie Neilsen planes as well and I'm just as pleased with those products. I also own Stanley and Sargent. I'm no expert but in my shop the newer tools work better and easier then the older stuff. YMMV of course.
Jim

Most assuredly the new VLPP (Veritas Large Plow Plane) will have a much easier learning curve than an antique multi-plane like the Stanley #45.

Not a single Stanley/Bailey plane in my assortment comes to mind that doesn't have at least a revolution of backlash in the depth adjustment. Every one of them has play in the lateral adjustment lever. This doesn't bother me, but over the years it seems to be an issue with some.

Like Jim above, my #45s get used often. There was a lot to learn to get to a point where they work without some aggravation. There still are sometimes when my attention slips and something doesn't work as planned.

Trying to compare the cost of a tool produced half a century or more in the past to one made today is pointless. The investment in manufacturing an old Stanley #45 was recouped when it was originally sold. Now it is an item bought and sold a number of times in an open market looking for another buyer.

For someone who wants a multipurpose plane but doesn't want to go through the trouble of making an old tool come to life, the VLPP will likely be money well spent.

For someone like myself, who would love to give the VLPP a test drive, an old temperamental plane like a #45 will likely do just fine.

jtk