Which smoothing plane to buy

[Tom Trees]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pAVgfSPMN0
Mr Weaver has gone to much efforts to make it widely known how to setup a plane for smoothing, by using the cap iron the way it was intended.

[Stewie Simpson]

People in the 1700s used wooden planes with blades made of whatever steel they could find to create masterpieces, and yet, very few people follow this tradition today. The reason for that is because there are better, easier and more efficient ways to do things.

With respect Jared; your comment suggests you know little on the subject.

[Jared Hendrix]

With respect Jarod; your comment suggests you know little on the subject.

yes, i admit, i know little about using those methods, however, as with most new technologies, most innovations that have been made over the years lead to better outcomes and a more efficient process. that i don't think you can deny. I bet if you took a modern joiner and planer back in time and gave it to a 18th century woodworker, he would never use a plane again. People are just fine using whatever methods they choose so long as they stay ignorant to any improvements in the process or tools. once you realize that there is a better way of doing something, most people would choose to use the better method, if they have the money to do so.

[Tom Trees]

The innovation came about, when the double iron plane was made first.

Tom

[Jared Hendrix]

How much tearout are you getting on the Walnut and African Mahogany? Are we talking about a train wreck, or just isolated spots of particularly problematic grain? Also how thick are your smoothing cuts and how deep is the resulting tearout?

If you're getting localized shallow tearout then I'd second the suggestion for some sort of scraper, though I'd go with a card scraper over a #80 for anything localized. If you think about the cutting mechanics of a properly "hooked" scraper it's equivalent to a plane with an ultra-tightly-set cap iron. The hook cuts at a fairly low angle, and then the face of the scraper immediately turns the chip and breaks it. With a card scraper you can work small spots, and you have direct control over the cutting angle.

Warren can probably plane everything without tearout using his #3. I can't manage that, but I can usually get all but the worst spots and then clean those with a card scraper.

IMO sharpening is like golf in the sense that it's one of those things that you can always improve, so your comment in another post about being "pretty confident" in your technique sets off some alarm bells for me. What medium are you finishing/polishing on?

EDIT: The OP didn't say he'd perfected anything. Revised accordingly.

the tear-out i'm getting is small isolated spots where the grain changes. And you cant hardly even notice it once its sanded, the grain is filled, and then finished, i just know that it's there and i want things to be perfect. i can approach it from the other side, but then the other area around it tears out. A card scraper would likely help address these small areas, and i plan on getting one, but there's other things that i could spend the money on right now.

yes ,my sharpening could likely improve, but i think that it could only do so by a small degree. I use sandpaper on a granite block up to 3000 grit and then finish on a strop. with a freshly sharpened blade i get fluffy translucent thin shavings.

[Stewie Simpson]

Jared; machine jointers and thicknessers have been on the market for years and it still hasn't negated the need for hand planes. LN and LV are still copying tool designs that were being manufactured by Stanley and Bailey back in the 1880s. Looking forward to viewing your future woodwork projects.

regards Stewie;

[steven c newman]

SDC15512.jpg
Ribbon maker...

This is a pre-1920 Union #5-A with the 2-1/4" wide iron. Same size as an EARLY Stanley # 5-1/2 ( later Stanley 5-1/2 planes used a 2-3/8" wide iron)....I now use a Stanley # 5-1/2, type 17, with the 2-3/8" wide iron...no camber.

[Pete Taran]

I think the OP is really looking for advice on what plane to buy. Rather than add to the typical snarkiness that abounds here when these topics come up, let me add my voice to the fray.

He states that he has a 5 1/2 (jack) and a 6 (try plane). Is there anyone that honestly believes that a hand tool shop is complete without a smoothing plane? So that narrows the list to a 3, 4 or 4 1/2 sized plane.

It also appears from the OPs comments, that budget is a constraint. To me, the answer is simple. Avert your gaze from the multiple hundred dollar new planes and just buy a used, good condition Stanley #4.

Yes, it's iron has not been immersed in nitrogen and may be a rockwell hardness point softer than modern versions. To a previous posters point, people have made some pretty spectacular stuff with these older, inferior irons. I use all original irons in my planes except for my block planes. I bought a bunch of Hock replacements long ago so I could sharpen them all at once and use them up until they were all dull. You will still have to sharpen your plane iron, no matter which one you get. The difference is stock is cheap and included, while aftermarket is pricey and costs extra. I doubt you will be inconvenienced by the need to sharpen 20 strokes before you would have to with a new iron.

As many have already opined, it's more important to be able to understand how to use and care for a plane than any other factor. Buying a plane in the wild and flattening the sole and properly adjusting the cap iron has always solved 99% of any problem woods I've encountered. Unless you think you will be flattening olive or claro walnut burl on a daily basis, I think you will be just fine. I grew up using curly maple for just about everything as my Father (and now Brother) sell it for a living. I've never had problems with tearout if the iron was properly set. Learning how to do that is a valuable skill and is not difficult.

So, for me, I'd start looking at garage sales, or if you are in a pinch, contact a tool dealer and get a good used #4. If you spend more than $50, you are wasting your money, As a data point, I just bought a brand new in the box, never used #3 for $75. That is not a stole it price, but market value, so save your money and start small and learn on something cheap. If after tuning up a few planes you decide you need the newfangled BU smoother with built in massaging handle, you can always get one. The skills you learned on the $50 "experiment" will be well worth the money and effort spent, and you can set that plane up for a specific task so it's always ready to go.

Here is the plane I mentioned. I bought it as a Christmas present for a friend. I could buy 3 of those planes for what a Veritas #4 Smoother costs with PM-V11 blade and still have money left over!

no3.jpg

[Pete Taran]

Jared,

I just read you post while I was writing my reply. Take some of the savings from buying an ordinary #4 and get a 6000 or 8000 grit japanese waterstone. You need to go a little further in your sharpening approach. For years I used a bench grinder, 1000 grit waterstone and 8000 grit waterstone. That was it. I recently bought two tormek grinders, one with the 220 grit wheel and one with the 6000 grit wheel. Same approach but infintely faster (and more expensive). I think you can solve many of your problems with a little keener edge on your blade. 3000 grit is not fine enough.

Regards,

Pete

[Jared Hendrix]

Jared; machine jointers and thicknessers have been on the market for years and it still hasn't negated the need for hand planes. LN and LV are still copying tool designs that were being manufactured by Stanley and Bailey back in the 1880s. Looking forward to viewing your future woodwork projects.

regards Stewie;

I dont think there isnt still a need for hand planes,(heck i'm the one asking suggestions on which ones to buy) only that there are newer and better technologies that can do the same job, even if that newer technology is another type of plane or a better made plane.

The comment earlier in the thread stated that i should learn to use the plane i have before i buy another. I've learned to use that plane, It's been the only plane I've used for the past 6 months. I now simply want to buy plane that is has been designed and made for the specific task of smoothing.

[Jared Hendrix]

I think the OP is really looking for advice on what plane to buy. Rather than add to the typical snarkiness that abounds here when these topics come up, let me add my voice to the fray.

He states that he has a 5 1/2 (jack) and a 6 (try plane). Is there anyone that honestly believes that a hand tool shop is complete without a smoothing plane? So that narrows the list to a 3, 4 or 4 1/2 sized plane.

It also appears from the OPs comments, that budget is a constraint. To me, the answer is simple. Avert your gaze from the multiple hundred dollar new planes and just buy a used, good condition Stanley #4.

Yes, it's iron has not been immersed in nitrogen and may be a rockwell hardness point softer than modern versions. To a previous posters point, people have made some pretty spectacular stuff with these older, inferior irons. I use all original irons in my planes except for my block planes. I bought a bunch of Hock replacements long ago so I could sharpen them all at once and use them up until they were all dull. You will still have to sharpen your plane iron, no matter which one you get. The difference is stock is cheap and included, while aftermarket is pricey and costs extra. I doubt you will be inconvenienced by the need to sharpen 20 strokes before you would have to with a new iron.

As many have already opined, it's more important to be able to understand how to use and care for a plane than any other factor. Buying a plane in the wild and flattening the sole and properly adjusting the cap iron has always solved 99% of any problem woods I've encountered. Unless you think you will be flattening olive or claro walnut burl on a daily basis, I think you will be just fine. I grew up using curly maple for just about everything as my Father (and now Brother) sell it for a living. I've never had problems with tearout if the iron was properly set. Learning how to do that is a valuable skill and is not difficult.

So, for me, I'd start looking at garage sales, or if you are in a pinch, contact a tool dealer and get a good used #4. If you spend more than $50, you are wasting your money, As a data point, I just bought a brand new in the box, never used #3 for $75. That is not a stole it price, but market value, so save your money and start small and learn on something cheap. If after tuning up a few planes you decide you need the newfangled BU smoother with built in massaging handle, you can always get one. The skills you learned on the $50 "experiment" will be well worth the money and effort spent, and you can set that plane up for a specific task so it's always ready to go.

Here is the plane I mentioned. I bought it as a Christmas present for a friend. I could buy 3 of those planes for what a Veritas #4 Smoother costs with PM-V11 blade and still have money left over!

no3.jpg

Thank you for addressing the real question! I'm definitely leaning toward a #4 at this point. Doing so would allow me to buy some other things i need as well.

[Tom Trees]

I dont think there isnt still a need for hand planes,(heck i'm the one asking suggestions on which ones to buy) only that there are newer and better technologies that can do the same job, even if that newer technology is another type of plane or a better made plane.

The comment earlier in the thread stated that i should learn to use the plane i have before i buy another. I've learned to use that plane, It's been the only plane I've used for the past 6 months. I now simply want to buy plane that is has been designed and made for the specific task of smoothing.

You haven't learned to use the double iron if you are still getting tearout, Period
Good luck
Tom

[Jared Hendrix]

Jared,

I just read you post while I was writing my reply. Take some of the savings from buying an ordinary #4 and get a 6000 or 8000 grit japanese waterstone. You need to go a little further in your sharpening approach. For years I used a bench grinder, 1000 grit waterstone and 8000 grit waterstone. That was it. I recently bought two tormek grinders, one with the 220 grit wheel and one with the 6000 grit wheel. Same approach but infintely faster (and more expensive). I think you can solve many of your problems with a little keener edge on your blade. 3000 grit is not fine enough.

Regards,

Pete

Better stones are on my list to buy, and i may be able to if i save money on plane, however i'm not sold on the fact that you need to go any finer.. take a look at paul sellers here https://paulsellers.com/2013/11/shar...an-real-terms/
He goes to 1200 on everything and does just fine... But let's not get off on a tangent with another debate around sharpening, i'm sure there are plenty of threads for that already..

[Rick Malakoff]

Peter, your post #38 was right on point! Thanks for taking the time to count it down for the OP.

[Pete Taran]

I guess if you are planing pine and poplar, you don't need to go any finer. But if you want to work with harder woods, you will need a keener edge. Think about a barber saving with a straight razor. Hair is soft compared to wood. They use crazy high grits to get the cleanest shave possible. That's because they want to cut the hair, not tear it. Finer edges cut. Less fine edges tear. Both will take a shaving.