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Thread: ENDURAMARK New Lower Cost Laser Marking chemical

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Bateson View Post
    In my opinion Enduramark's recommendation of a 2:1 dilution is way too thin.
    Well that sucks-- I really need to try some 6038. I've thinned the last 2 bottles of 6000 at 3:1, and it's borderline too thin for brushing, but it's okay. But if 2:1 is too thin, there will be no money saved:
    1 cup 6000=4 cups thinned @ $250 = $62.50 per usable cup---
    1 cup Endu=3 cups thinned @ $180 = $60.00 per usable cup--
    hmmm...

    We shall see...

    And FWIW, paypal says $9.99...

    And FWIW part II, I have bottles of DNA that my brushes get rinsed in, and use for thinning and test engraving- with just the trace amounts of Cermark in the alky, the results are still quite black hit at full power... (this addresses 'if it was thicker the tests might have been closer')

    My main interest at this point is how it works in my glass Triumph. Cermark simply will not produce results to suit me as for basic text engraving on stainless. The only consistency I get is with lots of power, and the result, while very consistent and requires sandblasting to remove, isn't the least bit "black". It's a dark bronze, with a gloss to it, which causes the mark to disappear when light hits it on an angle. I need a nice flat black like my metals lasers give me.

    We shall see...
    ========================================
    ELEVEN - rotary cutter tool machines
    FOUR - CO2 lasers
    THREE- make that FOUR now - fiber lasers
    ONE - vinyl cutter
    CASmate, Corel, Gravostyle


  2. #17
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    Tim what does it do with your fiber?
    Retired Guy- Central Iowa.HVAC/R , Cloudray Galvo Fiber , -Windows 10

  3. #18
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    Here's a quick and very unscientific test.
    First applied Enduramark very thin, watery, and ran at 100p, 600dpi and both 30 and 20 s. Results were not acceptable at that consistency.
    Then applied a thicker coat and ran at 20s, 100p and 600dpi, my Cermark settings. (second from the bottom.)
    Then I ran Cermark at the usual consistency with the same settings. I believe the Enduramark to be just slightly lighter than Cermark (bottom).

    I would have to run a few more tests to draw a conclusion.chemicalr.jpg
    Mike Null

    St. Louis Laser, Inc.

    Trotec Speedy 300, 80 watt
    Gravograph IS400
    Woodworking shop CLTT and Laser Sublimation
    Dye Sublimation
    CorelDraw X5, X7

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill George View Post
    Tim what does it do with your fiber?
    Haven't tried that as I don't use the Fiber on CerMark either.
    Tim
    There are Big Brain people & Small Brain people. I'm one of the Big Brains - with a lot of empty space.- me
    50W Fiber - Raycus/MaxPhotonics - It's a metal eating beast!
    Epilog Fusion M2 50/30 Co2/Fiber - 2015
    Epilog Mini 24 – 35watt - 2006 (Original Tube)
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  5. #20
    The "too thin doesn't work so well" is a bit disconcerting...

    Cermark only test- on the right, my basic mix, roughly 3 parts alky 1 part Cermark.
    On the left, my alky rinse bottle solution! And, I even added 1/4 cup or so of alky to it before
    applying it...
    C1.jpg

    camera focused on the trash can, but I'm tilting the plate,
    but you can still see it's very runny--
    C2.jpg

    my power settings-
    C3.jpg

    Starting the engraving
    C4.jpg

    note there's some missing Cermark...
    C5.jpg

    I always use water and a magic eraser to remove the Cermark,
    this gets it ALL off, and also tells me if it the Cermark didn't fuse well to the metal...
    C6.jpg

    Here's the finished version, I rotated the plate 180 to hopefully
    get the same lighting angle-
    C7.jpg
    C8.jpg
    -not exactly the same lighting but close-
    While there's some bare spots on the 'weak' side, overall, the black is nearly the same
    as it is on the 'strong' side. And my weak solution at BEST must be 10:1 alky to Cermark, possibly as much as 15:1 -
    ========================================
    ELEVEN - rotary cutter tool machines
    FOUR - CO2 lasers
    THREE- make that FOUR now - fiber lasers
    ONE - vinyl cutter
    CASmate, Corel, Gravostyle


  6. #21
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    Kev

    I tend to agree with the idea of using a higher ratio of dna to Cermark. I don't measure mine, just eyeball it at about the consistency of 2% milk or a little thinner. I mixed the Enduramark at 3 to 1. That was too thin so I let it evaporate and then reapplied with much better results. One thing is quickly apparent--Enduramark stays in suspension longer making it much easier to spray than Cermark.
    Mike Null

    St. Louis Laser, Inc.

    Trotec Speedy 300, 80 watt
    Gravograph IS400
    Woodworking shop CLTT and Laser Sublimation
    Dye Sublimation
    CorelDraw X5, X7

  7. #22
    not settling fast is a good thing, spray OR brush--

    This newest bottle of Cermark I just got came in a 'new' bottle, updated label, and the bottle is actually different, and I don't care for the lid, the OLD lid's design is much better- but I gots plenty of empty old ones! - It's different than the last 3 bottles, more of a gray color. And the first thing I found is that if it sits on these brass plated cowbells I laser for more than about 10 minutes, it starts to tarnish the brass, badly. I've had this happen in the past at times, but not this bad- I ended up having to hurriedly coat 50 bells ENTIRELY just so they would tarnish somewhat equally instead of the engraving being framed within a very noticeable darkened square. I have a few bells that's had Cermark on them for months or years, I found one and used as an experiment, the old hasn't tarnished the brass a bit but the new did...

    Here's the backs & sides 2 rejects, the left is one I coated the whole bell, the right only the front.
    The left is noticeably tarnished. Turn the bells sideways, and you can see where the Cermark ran down the sides, tarnishing both bells...
    stain1.jpgstain2.jpg

    --this is one of my pet peeves with Cermark, that every 5 batches or so is very corrosive. Years ago the Cermark I applied to some carbon steel chisels rusted them very badly, and immediately, that was a nightmare. And with the Olympics coming in February I already have orders for more than 500 of these things, likely to be 1000 more, and I CAN'T have them tarnishing up!

    Can't wait to test the Enduramark on these bells. If it proves less corrosive than Cermark then I will definitely be getting some!
    ========================================
    ELEVEN - rotary cutter tool machines
    FOUR - CO2 lasers
    THREE- make that FOUR now - fiber lasers
    ONE - vinyl cutter
    CASmate, Corel, Gravostyle


  8. #23
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    Kev, you can't do those Bells with your fiber?
    Retired Guy- Central Iowa.HVAC/R , Cloudray Galvo Fiber , -Windows 10

  9. #24
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    That's my first thought as well Bill.....

    Second, are you marking all over them? or on one side in say a square? Can you tape of that area and quickly spray lacquer on the rest of the bell? Yes, I know..... more time, might peel off later, has to dry, etc, but better than tarnish.

    Third, have you tried Laserbond on them? or a different Cermark? I've been using lmm14, but you can't handle the area at all. And Laserbond is very similar to 14, can't handle. That's it's main drawback over the 6000 in my opinion.
    Woodworking, Old Tools and Shooting
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  10. #25
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    I let the jar sit open overnight. As I had suspected I saw the same results Mike got. So bottom line it's REALLY close to CerMark, but a but duller after cleaned. Due to the minimal dilution I'm still not sold. I have to wonder though if due to so many free sample orders if they had already diluted it a bit to stretch it out?
    Last edited by Tim Bateson; 08-04-2017 at 10:08 AM.
    Tim
    There are Big Brain people & Small Brain people. I'm one of the Big Brains - with a lot of empty space.- me
    50W Fiber - Raycus/MaxPhotonics - It's a metal eating beast!
    Epilog Fusion M2 50/30 Co2/Fiber - 2015
    Epilog Mini 24 – 35watt - 2006 (Original Tube)
    Ricoh SG3110DN
    - Liberty Laser LLC

  11. #26
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    Tim

    I won't buy into that idea. Samples are the best way I know of to get started in this kind of business. No way they would short shrift their samples. Besides, I spoke to one of the owners and I was impressed with him as a guy I'd like to do business with. I'm hoping the tests are positive as I'm ready to switch if there's a reason.
    Mike Null

    St. Louis Laser, Inc.

    Trotec Speedy 300, 80 watt
    Gravograph IS400
    Woodworking shop CLTT and Laser Sublimation
    Dye Sublimation
    CorelDraw X5, X7

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill George View Post
    Kev, you can't do those Bells with your fiber?
    Nope. See responses in other threads about how fibers engrave brass, in particular, bullet shells. These bells are made from cold rolled steel, and plated with used bullet brass supplied by the Norwegian Army. They're plated hot, then cold dunked which splatters the brass. They do "mark" with the fiber but nothing pretty about it. I also tool engrave them; I'm surprised anyone likes the tool engraving because brite silver engraving against brite brass = no contrast at all. But many customers insist on it. Oh well

    When I'm done lasering, they get a good shot of clear enamel, seals up everything and gives the Cermark a gloss. I give a light clearcoat to tool engraved to prevent the engraving from rusting. Many of these are done on both sides.

    Very rarely has this tarnish issue came up. IF I can get the Cermark washed off within 20 minutes that's usually okay- problem is I'm always doing many jobs at once and don't babysit the machine, so sometimes way more than 20 minutes will go by before I can get to them.

    It's just plain easier if the marking solution DOESN'T tarnish them!

    bel1.jpg
    ========================================
    ELEVEN - rotary cutter tool machines
    FOUR - CO2 lasers
    THREE- make that FOUR now - fiber lasers
    ONE - vinyl cutter
    CASmate, Corel, Gravostyle


  13. #28
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    I am going to Post a picture of some engraved rifle brass.... If it offends someone I will remove but its the only one I have right now that was done with my laser. It could be live ammo, done for someone in the Military.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Retired Guy- Central Iowa.HVAC/R , Cloudray Galvo Fiber , -Windows 10

  14. #29
    I've engraved many shells with my fiber, it's had no trouble marking any of them, and I've been able to mark them dark or light. Keyword in this is "mark", not a lot of actual 'engraving' going on.

    Now copper is a different story, I've been only able to barely mark pure copper, and that was within a very specific speed and frequency ratio. And it didn't matter what the speed or frequency was set at, as long as the ratio between the two remained the same- I forget actual numbers but for example, 500 speed/35 freq and 1000 speed/70 freq would engrave the same. The little 'circles' button below the settings? As long as the overlap shown visually was the same, any usable speed and freq numbers would work. How much power makes very little difference.

    I've been figuring out how to engrave rings with my fiber (tip: don't use the ring engrave option)... a customer gave me some brass rings to practice with. I don't know if they're brass, or brass plated, but they're not easy to mark. The inside seemed to mark pretty good, visible at least, but then the inside isn't polished...
    ring2.jpg
    The outside however, not so visible. In both cases the laser just seemed to 'boil' the surface, but it darkened the inside, not so the outside. After the first pass I hit it several more times, it never got any better. And while it shows up, sorta, you literally can't see it with the naked eye unless you look HARD for it.
    ring.jpg

    Seems to me all non-ferrous metals will always be a crap shoot. Which is why the GOLD versions of this rings, I think I may just pass on. I have no idea what'll happen, and while these kinds of results can likely be sanded and polished away, I'd rather not mess them up...

    For engraving brass shells, here you go-- just insist on big shells and tool engrave the things!
    mug1.jpgmug2.jpg

    (but these were no fun either)
    ========================================
    ELEVEN - rotary cutter tool machines
    FOUR - CO2 lasers
    THREE- make that FOUR now - fiber lasers
    ONE - vinyl cutter
    CASmate, Corel, Gravostyle


  15. #30
    Ok, so I opened up my thimblefull's worth of black.... not kidding, after much shaking I emptied the contents into the lid, and it barely half-filled it. I then poured it back, then I added a equal amount of DNA, then a slightly less than equal amount, so the resulting mix I would estimate at 1.8:1.

    I opened a new 3/8" wide soft bristle artists fan brush, which is perfect for coating small areas with Cermark.

    As everyone else noted, too thin. And simply put, you can't brush this stuff...

    From opening it the day before, some residue was left behind on the lid and bottle. Some of this powder ended up on my black work table. It's pure white, and feels every bit like talcum powder. Might be some plaster of paris involved, not sure. But you can't brush it, because it refuses to flow out, even water-thin. It just 'bunches up' around the brush bristles, and attempting to even it out, the brush acts more like a squeegee, makes it worse. I managed to get 2 coats on a small cowbell, which will be my 'acid test', because only my 80 watt Triumph will reliable fuse Cermark to these bells, my 40 and 30 watt Synrad lasers won't. I'll be testing it later today once I get another job out of the way. I'm also going to test it on some stainless with the Triumph. If it works well on either, I can deal with spraying the stuff if necessary.

    We shall see

    >edit - the MFR won't like to hear this, but at the rate of DNA mix to make this work, which is 2:1 or less, this stuff will cost MORE per use than Cermark...
    Last edited by Kev Williams; 08-08-2017 at 11:28 AM.
    ========================================
    ELEVEN - rotary cutter tool machines
    FOUR - CO2 lasers
    THREE- make that FOUR now - fiber lasers
    ONE - vinyl cutter
    CASmate, Corel, Gravostyle


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