KnewConcepts Mk3 vs Mk4

[Bill Houghton]

When I first saw the grey saw in one of Derek's photos I felt I just had to have it. After tracking it down to being a Knew Concepts I was hugely disappointed to discover that it was only available in RED! which I felt cheapened it immensely. Go figure.

Did you maybe think it was secretly a Woodpuckers tool?

[andy bessette]

BH--I had never seen one before viewing Derek's photo.

[John Lanciani]

Derek's grey one is a prototype Titanium saw, machined from a single plate. NC ended up bringing the multi-piece Ti "birdcage" saw to market instead, when they realized that wasting Ti like that would drive the manufacturing cost and therefore price up to unacceptable levels even for them.

I expect that it will soon become economically feasible to do a one-piece Ti saw with additive manufacturing, though.

The one piece Ti saws were most definitely made and sold at least for a short period of time, I have one.

[Patrick Chase]

The one piece Ti saws were most definitely made and sold at least for a short period of time, I have one.

The story I heard is that the founder (spacing his name right now) ended up in possession of a small quantity of Ti sheet, left over from the F-22 program. He made and sold small quantities of the saw that you have until he exhausted that supply, and then realized that he couldn't manufacture it economically from non-surplus materials. The market price of Ti was also increasing rapidly from its 2009 nadir about that time, though it's been headed back down of late.

Interestingly the birdcage's structure is inherently much more rigid in twist and side-to-side (the "flat" one is stiff in tension, so-so in twist, and soft in side-bending). Which is "better" doesn't seem clear-cut to me.

[Derek Cohen]

I have a bunch of the saws - generally, Lee Marshall keeps me in the loop as he goes (as I was instrumental for suggesting design factors at the start and these fretsaws becoming a woodworking tool). I don't otherwise have any connection with Knew Concepts.

As my experience with the saws has developed, I have come to recognise that the stiffness is indeed important, but that the adjustments and ease of set up are even more so. The stiffness factor becomes less of an issue as you lighten the pressure on the blade. Using a fretsaw is no different from using a dovetail saw insofar as applying very LIGHT pressure to the cut. Here is an excerpt from my article on through dovetails where I mention this ...





The waste is now removed with a fretsaw. I aim to saw along the top of the chisel wall. This should leave about 1-2mm of waste above the line.


As with the saw, the fretsaw must be held as lightly as possible. Never force the cut. Let the saw do the work. A way of determining how you are doing is to watch the blade – it should hardly deflect. You should be rewarded with a fairly straight saw cut.


Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

I just chop out the waste. Why? Just got used to doing it that way. If you saw the waste out,you've STILL got to chisel out the waste. I got to where I could do the corner of a drawer in my large tool chest in 10 minutes flat.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi George

You could just chop it out. I prefer to saw out the waste leaving about 1mm above the line. This is then easy to pare away. It is also less brutal on the chisel edges.

I should qualify this by adding that I dislike chopping into our West Australian hardwoods, so your experience is likely to be different.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

I don't make a lot of furniture. My woods are likely to be mahogany,pretty soft honduras,pine,etc..If I was using really hard woods,I'd saw the waste out like you do.

[lowell holmes]

I hope you guys realize that Derek and George are having a discussion, pay attention.

[Patrick Chase]

I hope you guys realize that Derek and George are having a discussion, pay attention.

I certainly am. As I've said before, George's tangents are some of my favorite discussions on this forum.

[george wilson]

I don't have much more to say. For years I just used an old Disston back saw-a small size one. Still have it in the shop somewhere. But,when I found an old Groves dovetail saw with a .015" thick blade,I very quickly was spoiled.

When we made saws,the .015" thick dovetail saws were the first to get grabbed by the different shops that came to get their new saws. Later on(still many years ago),I found a beautiful old Groves back saw with a bent blade. Was cheaper than if it had been straight,but still not really cheap! But,I just clamped the front end of the blade in a smooth jawed machinist's vise,tapped the front edge of the back,and jerked the blade straight. These are my 2 favorite OLD back saws. I have made a few repros of them,as they have such lovely shaped handles.

[David Eisenhauer]

Any way we could see a photo of the Groves' handles you have?

[lowell holmes]

Paul Sellers taught me how to make dovetail joints. My chisels are scalpel sharp and I chop. I think he uses a coping saw now, but I'm not sure.

[David Eisenhauer]

I chopped because I never got along with a standard coping saw. For all the agra with the saw, I just went ahead and chopped. No real issue with chopping until I tried the Knew concepts fret saw. A real "oh now I see said the blind man" moment for me.

[george wilson]

Here are a few based upon the Groves saws. Especially the closed nandle one. I can't sleep,and didn't bring my glasses down stairs,so I hope there aren't too many typos. think I added a few details from a saw in the Duncan Phyfe tool chest on the open handle one. It's been years.