Craftsman front door build

[Joe Calhoon]

Here are a couple good examples of how not to build. A long time contractor customer brought these in a couple months ago to have us make new doors to replace these. These were only 20 years old. We built new ones out of Mahogany. The first door was made with 2 layers of plywood core with 1/8" skins. The lower door I think from a different maker was one layer of 3/4" ply with thick skins. The biggest problem is they used Poplar. The top door got moisture in the lock box causing major problems with skin and core delaminating. Biggest issue was water getting in the horizontal rail grooves causing more delimitation and rotting. The bottom door was a 6 light french door before we took it apart to salvage the IG. It fell apart as we were removing the glass. Amazingly we were able to use the IG in the new door.
Again this door was Poplar but the major problem was using loose stops inside and out. Water gets under these no matter how well glued and will fail fast on horizontal pieces. This is a classic mistake I see a lot with inexperienced door and window builders who don't want to go to the expense of counter profile cutters. Don't ask how I know this.
Petty 2.jpg
Petty 1.jpg

[John TenEyck]

Thanks very much Jack for taking the time to post and being willing to share those videos. I appreciate not only the how's but also the why's of why you choose to do things certain ways. Understanding allows one to develop solutions that work for them, in their situation and location. Thank you.

I really like the foam and foil system you are using between the door panels. How are you gluing the foil over the back of the outer panel and gap where you use it as a weather seal?

Any idea of what glue was used on those historic doors that have survived over 100 years? As I mentioned above, I saw lots of stave core doors in the mansions at Newport, RI, many built in the 1860 - 1885 time frame, still looking to be in topnotch condition.

John

[Joe Calhoon]

John, I have run across a few historic doors here built that way and they have done OK but in pretty protected areas. Our courthouse has 8' tall oak interior doors from the 1890s that have some sort of hollow construction that I have never been able to figure out. For big doors they are very light which is a plus. Has anyone ever run into this type door before and know the construction?

[John TenEyck]

That's interesting, Joe. The exterior door I removed when I installed the Sapele door I showed above turned out to be hollow core construction. The thing didn't weigh 50 lbs; mine must have weighed at least 120 lb. We took it apart just to see how it was constructed. It was shocking to see it as nothing more than a light wood perimeter frame, some intermediate framing where some original lites or panels once were, and some blocking where the lockset and hinges went, and then the skins, pretty much like a cheap interior hollow core door. The owner said it was original to the house, and looked to be, which was built in the 1920's IIRC. It had been modified at some point to remove the original lites or panels and some sort of coated Masonite like skin had been glued on the outside. That had buckled from weather exposure and was a real mess, but the door still closed pretty well even though water came through the old seals when rain blew against it. This door is going to be a good one to keep track of as it has no protection and faces directly West. I know the owner so I'll be able to inspect it regularly. This door is the first time using a hidden bottom seal so we'll see how that holds up over time. My initial reaction is it's a winner when dealing with an out of level stone threshold and the desire to keep the step over height to a minimum. I used a 1/4" ADA compliant sill with it.

John

[jack forsberg]

Thanks very much Jack for taking the time to post and being willing to share those videos. I appreciate not only the how's but also the why's of why you choose to do things certain ways. Understanding allows one to develop solutions that work for them, in their situation and location. Thank you.

I really like the foam and foil system you are using between the door panels. How are you gluing the foil over the back of the outer panel and gap where you use it as a weather seal?

Any idea of what glue was used on those historic doors that have survived over 100 years? As I mentioned above, I saw lots of stave core doors in the mansions at Newport, RI, many built in the 1860 - 1885 time frame, still looking to be in topnotch condition.

John

I am imagine John Animal skin hide glue . The point being is that they didn't rely on the glue yet fell on the stability of the wood. I don't pretend to know a fraction of what they did, when they used to wood by the millions of cubic meters . Trees were the option back then no man made products .

[Joe Calhoon]

That's interesting, Joe. The exterior door I removed when I installed the Sapele door I showed above turned out to be hollow core construction. The thing didn't weigh 50 lbs; mine must have weighed at least 120 lb. We took it apart just to see how it was constructed. It was shocking to see it as nothing more than a light wood perimeter frame, some intermediate framing where some original lites or panels once were, and some blocking where the lockset and hinges went, and then the skins, pretty much like a cheap interior hollow core door. The owner said it was original to the house, and looked to be, which was built in the 1920's IIRC. It had been modified at some point to remove the original lites or panels and some sort of coated Masonite like skin had been glued on the outside. That had buckled from weather exposure and was a real mess, but the door still closed pretty well even though water came through the old seals when rain blew against it. This door is going to be a good one to keep track of as it has no protection and faces directly West. I know the owner so I'll be able to inspect it regularly. This door is the first time using a hidden bottom seal so we'll see how that holds up over time. My initial reaction is it's a winner when dealing with an out of level stone threshold and the desire to keep the step over height to a minimum. I used a 1/4" ADA compliant sill with it.

John

John, were they frame and panel doors? The ones in our courthouse are. I will have to get up there and take a closer look.

We have used drop bottoms and adjustable bottoms for years with success. I prefer the Swiss brand that Resource Conservation sells. We tried a Pemco on a job and not happy with that one. I actually prefer their adjustable bottom just for its simplicity but their auto bottoms are good and conform to irregular sills.
IMG_1843.jpg

[jack forsberg]

Thanks very much Jack for taking the time to post and being willing to share those videos. I appreciate not only the how's but also the why's of why you choose to do things certain ways. Understanding allows one to develop solutions that work for them, in their situation and location. Thank you.

I really like the foam and foil system you are using between the door panels. How are you gluing the foil over the back of the outer panel and gap where you use it as a weather seal?

Any idea of what glue was used on those historic doors that have survived over 100 years? As I mentioned above, I saw lots of stave core doors in the mansions at Newport, RI, many built in the 1860 - 1885 time frame, still looking to be in topnotch condition.

John

Sorry John missed the question about how I sealed the foil . I use HVAC ducting tape which is also a foil . For the flat panels . where there isn't enough room for panel foam I use Cedar lumber core . I'm not comfortable with the idea of glueing directly on foam or outsourcing products . Cedar does actually have a fairly decent thermal property and is of course rot resistant . The important thing to remember with Cedar Core is the core has to be dressed just prior to gluing . Cedars release oil's and can cause adhesion failure if surfaces are not fresh . I simply don't surface my core for two weeks after gluing and just before gluing skins . Lastly I apply glue to both surfaces skin and core. Sorry I don't have a video on YouTube but I do have one on my Instagram feed . https://www.instagram.com/p/BTbpGZBFk9I/

[John TenEyck]

Joe, I don't think it was a frame and panel door. The internal construction was just fairly light rectangular frame members around the perimeter and where the original panels were. I really have no clue how they finished it off to make it look good, but might guess that it had plywood skins cut out where the panels were and then trimmed out with moldings.

I used a Pemco hidden bottom seal on this door. I knew nothing about them until the guy who I learned from told me about them.



Very cool how the amount of drop is adjustable:



And how it accommodates the angle of this sill being about 1/4" lower on the lock side:



You can't actually see them in this photo, but I put weep holes in the reveal of the bottom moldings to drain out water that gets between the raised panel and molding. I debated whether to seal the panels to the molding with silicone caulking, but decided against that. I ended up making the inside moldings removable so that the panels can be pulled out for maintenance, and the weep holes can be cleaned out at the same time, if needed. Have you ever done anything like this? The owner hasn't seen any water drain out of them yet, nor did I see any evidence of it on the face of the door. The panels fit tightly into the moldings and appear to be shedding water well so far. This door gets rain directly against it sometimes so it's going to be a good test case for several ideas I used.

John

[Joe Calhoon]

John, you should try the Swiss drop bottoms from Resource Conservation. They function better than Pemco's and don't require a huge groove in the door bottom. The best drop seals are made by another Swiss company.
http://planet.ag/en/
They have one that goes down and sideways at the same time to seal against the jamb legs. They were trying to set up a dealership in the US but don't think it ever got off the ground.

We use drain slots in our doors and windows. I have a poor quality U tube here to explain that.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h4w4JGFXXO8

I don't believe in sealing the innards of doors tight, you are just inviting mold and rot. Wood needs to breathe and IG set in a frame needs to expel vapor and frost from cold temps outside.
I am away from home at the moment and don't have access to all my photos. We have several ways to deal with water running down panels into the bottom groove. Depending on the exposure the drain slots and caulk grooves in the sticking or moulding are usually enough. Applied mouldings are always a problem in bad exposures and I prefer a reverse square edge cope and stick for inner door surfaces. Confusing, but maybe this picture explains.

IMG_1669.jpg
This way there are no grooves in horizontal rails to collect water.
We have another method for flat and planked panels to expel water. The horizontal rails get a tongue and small bevel to the outside and the panel bottom has a groove to saddle over this. Don't have a good picture to show this. Here is a bottom rail but not showing the panel. The angled piece is a cross buck on this massive pair of 4' x 8' tall doors.
IMG_0323.jpg

[John TenEyck]

Thanks Joe. I really like the idea of the hidden bottom seal flaring out to seal against the frame legs as it drops; I'll have to look into that Swiss company. That's the one place the Pemco hidden bottom seal doesn't seal, at the frame. You have the side seal but there is still a little pathway for air to leak past, which Jack may have solved with his approach although that's not very attractive when the door is open. Sometime when you have a chance I'd really like to see in detail how you deal with water getting between the panel and sticking. You can send me a PM if you'd like, or to jteneyck54@live.com, or continue to post here, as you choose. Many thanks for your being willing to help educate me and others.

And you are right, those are massive doors.

Oh, one more comment. I was out yesterday to look at some potential work for some very well healed clients. There was a beautiful mahogany front door with a big leaded glass panel, flanked by two side lights. When I went to close the door it clanked and then reluctantly shut. Of course that got my attention, so I looked more closely and saw the reveal was much tighter at the top on the lock side than on the hinge side, and the opposite at the bottom. I opened the door and pushed a little on the edge of the door, and could easily see the hinges were sloppy. They were 4" ball bearing hinges but the pins didn't fit tightly into the leaves. I couldn't tell who the manufacturer of the hinges was but I sure wouldn't have used them. The mullion the hinges were anchored to were only an inch thick, too, which looked pretty light to me although I didn't see any flex in them. I asked the GC about the door and he said the whole unit was going back. Seems someone didn't know left handed from right handed. He said he was going to ask for better quality hinges, too. It was a $5000 door. Not outrageous, though it was unfinished, but still, I would have expected better.

John

[Warren Lake]

there is a fair bit to all this starting with stave or not, stave according to the old guy and I think they made their staves different, glue them up then ip them on the bandsaw then reglue them. I notice on a door i have here from a door maker the stave core is in finger joint sections, styles are perfectly straight and its never been stored properly and no finish on it. John up here a door like you describe is 15-20k canadian with the sidelights and all. No one has talked about the bow that is supposed to be in the lock set style to keep a preload when it is closed, just one more thing to build in if you do it that way. Not sure how that is done with stave core easy enough on your jointer with solid.

[Mel Fulks]

Warren, I hadnt thought of that lock pressure thing since I was a kid ...trying to open a door. Think weather stripping and dead bolts have made the good bow ...bow out! I would point out to anyone starting to try stave cores that they have to be machined straight; I mention that because I can remember as a beginner thinking that a bowed stile would be corrected by good straight cauls or jigs when gluing the skins. That doesn't work. The job of machineing the cores has to be done by someone with SKILL, and the ones with skill usually enjoy a chance to use it.

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks Joe. I really like the idea of the hidden bottom seal flaring out to seal against the frame legs as it drops; I'll have to look into that Swiss company. That's the one place the Pemco hidden bottom seal doesn't seal, at the frame. You have the side seal but there is still a little pathway for air to leak past, which Jack may have solved with his approach although that's not very attractive when the door is open. Sometime when you have a chance I'd really like to see in detail how you deal with water getting between the panel and sticking. You can send me a PM if you'd like, or to jteneyck54@live.com, or continue to post here, as you choose. Many thanks for your being willing to help educate me and others.

And you are right, those are massive doors.

Oh, one more comment. I was out yesterday to look at some potential work for some very well healed clients. There was a beautiful mahogany front door with a big leaded glass panel, flanked by two side lights. When I went to close the door it clanked and then reluctantly shut. Of course that got my attention, so I looked more closely and saw the reveal was much tighter at the top on the lock side than on the hinge side, and the opposite at the bottom. I opened the door and pushed a little on the edge of the door, and could easily see the hinges were sloppy. They were 4" ball bearing hinges but the pins didn't fit tightly into the leaves. I couldn't tell who the manufacturer of the hinges was but I sure wouldn't have used them. The mullion the hinges were anchored to were only an inch thick, too, which looked pretty light to me although I didn't see any flex in them. I asked the GC about the door and he said the whole unit was going back. Seems someone didn't know left handed from right handed. He said he was going to ask for better quality hinges, too. It was a $5000 door. Not outrageous, though it was unfinished, but still, I would have expected better.

John

John,
In general North American style doors are hard to seal well, especially meeting pairs.That is what drove me to building German - Central European rebated doors. Our door systems for that usually have 3 gaskets all the way around including th bottom. I could not find any good pictures of mine on the phone but here are door corner samples from a German shop I was in a few years ago.
IMG_2078.jpg

Ball bearing butts are a problem with most made in the East. On real high end we use Rocky Mountain hinges. They have to be fitter individually as every one is a little different. We used to allow 3/32" gap but for several years now 1/8" because of the decline in hinge quality. It takes a good finish carpenter to hang heavy doors. Knowing where to block and screw on the hinge side is key. Big doors always pull at the top.

Good door building is a lot more than how you make the joints and stiles. Finish, hardware, installation and sealing is the tricky part.

[John TenEyck]

Thanks Joe. I've been married to a German for over 35 years; after being there on vacation and for business probably at least 50 times I'm very familiar with Euro style doors and windows. Far superior to ours in both function and weather tightness. Not as attractive to my eye as our more simple designs, but no leakage is beautiful, too.

John

[Warren Lake]

thanks Mel,

geez one word has two different meanings no wonder I get confused at times And why is there a b in climb? ive yet to try a core thing and want to. Would be neat to see how the material reacts to jointing and planing compared to solid. You know I admire your command of solid material. Thinking about my mothers 50 year old pine windows, fall storm window goes on and that three holes and flap arm to close them off. that was some high tech stuff.




this is vague I know but what do we think of door thicknesses?



cabinets like Kitchen door stuff I use 7/8" min as it works to my face frame on inset with bead, we were taught to use 3/4 and most kitchen door makers are 13/16, of course 4/4 is a shadow of what it was making 7/8 more of a bother
I dont like 3/4 doors ive opened kitchens with a magnetic latch at one end and on a long door felt it bend as I was pulling free of the magnet, I know there are some kitchen builders that do 1" thick doors. 7/8 can be a pain with european hinges but found a few that worked,



Armoire bookcase type doors epending on inset or have odd time partial overlay 1 1/4 - 1 3/8 more likely



Interior home door which I havent done you are 1 3/8 - 1 1/2? I should have checked this home I was in guy did a very expensive home and was mounting doors he had made poplar stained like Walnut colour, very nicely made and he used good hinges and ball catches top and bottom, doors closed with a quiet authority and no rattle and where two met they were bang on accurate held in place top and bottom.



entrance doors, 1 3/4 - 2 1/4 - 2 1/2 for some depending on cores etc


Garage doors, Joe you have made those I think



Realize all this is style length dependant, are some people doing stave stuff on interiors or only on the thicker doors?