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Thread: Firmer Chisels

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    One old anecdote about firmer chisels was their name came from being able to take a firmer blow from a mallet.

    jtk
    If the dictionary etymology is to be believed it derives from the French verb "former" ("to form") by way of the French "formoir" ("that which forms").

  2. #32
    Thanks, Patrick. I was using " The Shorter OED " since my complete one is the the one that needs magnification....hard to see the print with all those molecules boogying around!

  3. #33
    I think "the etymology" is wrong. The French fermoir is a tool with two bevels, deux biseaux. In the 17th and 18th centuries there was steel sandwiched between two pieces of iron, the way some axes are made. Fermoir means clasp in French, and Salivet (1798) explains that the steel is clasped between the iron pieces. Many French sources explain that a fermoir has two bevels, while a ciseau (chisel) has one bevel.

    I asked Michel Auriou about this. He said "A fermoir is not a chisel!"

    The dictionaries are often helpful on dating words, but they are not perfect.
    Last edited by Warren Mickley; 08-16-2017 at 11:07 PM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    I think "the etymology" is wrong. The French fermoir is a tool with two bevels, deux biseaux. In the 17th and 18th centuries there was steel sandwiched between two pieces of iron, the way some axes are made. Fermoir means clasp in French, and Salivet (1798) explains that the steel is clasped between the iron pieces. Many French sources explain that a fermoir has two bevels, while a ciseau (chisel) has one bevel.

    I asked Michel Auriou about this. He said "A fermoir is not a chisel!"


    The dictionaries are often helpful on dating words, but they are not perfect.
    Note that the dictionary etymologies have it derived from former (to form) via formoire (that which forms), not fermoir. Note the o/e substitution. I agree that the latter etymology (via fermoir) is highly unlikely, and that dictionaries are imperfect.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 08-16-2017 at 11:24 PM.

  5. #35
    Yeah,not perfect but the Oxford is quite a piece of work put together with the help of many loving volunteers of merit. The problems are the many origins. Here's an example of difficulty : algorithms and Al Gore Rythyms ARE DIFFERENT!!

  6. #36
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    Page 17; 1959 William Marples & Sons Catalogue. https://archive.org/stream/Marples19...ge/n0/mode/2up

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Fulks View Post
    Yeah,not perfect but the Oxford is quite a piece of work put together with the help of many loving volunteers of merit. The problems are the many origins. Here's an example of difficulty : algorithms and Al Gore Rythyms ARE DIFFERENT!!
    I thought he invented algorithms and they were named in his honor?

    PS - Yes, I realize that "Al Gore invented X" jokes are an anachronism in 2017.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 08-17-2017 at 12:54 AM.

  8. #38
    "but seriously, folks...." It's more accurate than it is correct in that it makes old works make sense. Years ago I was reading the journal of the French Jesuit Charlevoix written in America. He mentioned an animal I did not recognize. When I looked it up OED said "mistakenly used by Charlevoix to describe ....(can't remember the animal now ,or forget the personal service!). And some of the computor searched definitions are ridiculous,saw one here not long ago .....the word was "disgruntled " and part of the nutty answer was "the opposite of gruntled". They mean the SAME thing...

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    Note that the dictionary etymologies have it derived from former (to form) via formoire (that which forms), not fermoir. Note the o/e substitution. I agree that the latter etymology (via fermoir) is highly unlikely, and that dictionaries are imperfect.
    I was objecting to the Merriam Webster etymology you linked to in your 10:32 post last night. That etymology shows firmer chisel from fermoir, from formoir, from former, forme. The trouble with that sequence is that a firmer chisel is not a fermoir, and etymologies in French dictionaries show that fermoir derives from fermer (to close, not to form).

    Here is another reference from Neve 1736:
    firmer neve 1736.png

    The impression I get is that the term was in widespread use, maybe even long time use, without having been very much in print. Etymologies are quite speculative in such cases.

  10. #40
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    The definition of firmer is more solid, or more unyielding when pressed; comparatively solid, hard, stiff, or rigid: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/firmer

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    I was objecting to the Merriam Webster etymology you linked to in your 10:32 post last night. That etymology shows firmer chisel from fermoir, from formoir, from former, forme. The trouble with that sequence is that a firmer chisel is not a fermoir, and etymologies in French dictionaries show that fermoir derives from fermer (to close, not to form).

    Here is another reference from Neve 1736:
    firmer neve 1736.png

    The impression I get is that the term was in widespread use, maybe even long time use, without having been very much in print. Etymologies are quite speculative in such cases.
    Yeah, I linked M-W because OED is paywalled. You're right that that the presence of fermoir in the etymology looks quite suspect. I've lived in France and been fluent in French, and that one strikes me as off too.

    Interestingly sources you've cited (Moxon and Neve) both imply that it did derive from the French Former (to form), so it appears that there's some agreement on that point. It's the intervening steps (formier/fermier) that look murky.

    As you say etymologies are never precise, both due to unavailability of source material and because actual usage is seldom precise or uniform. Etymologies are necessarily attempts to apply structure to human speech patterns that are anything but.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 08-17-2017 at 12:01 PM.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie Simpson View Post
    The definition of firmer is more solid, or more unyielding when pressed; comparatively solid, hard, stiff, or rigid: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/firmer
    Language isn't orderly in the way you imply here. The fact that a term has a particular meaning in one context doesn't say anything about its meaning or derivation in another.

    The one thing that every source cited so far seems to agree on is that the term "firmer" as applied to a chisel derives from the French "former" (to form), not from the existing English adverb that you cite. The fact that it happens to be spelled the same is irrelevant. The Englishfolk who borrowed the French term probably just mapped it to a word they already knew even though the meaning was inconsistent. That happens all the time.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 08-17-2017 at 12:10 PM.

  13. #43
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    Sooooo, Boys and Girls.....what exactly does one really DO with a firmer chisel?

    I have Mortise chisels ( but no "Pig Stickers" Am I deprived?)

    I have quite a few bevel edged chisels

    And..I have a few sizes of FIRMER chisels....( 3/8" Butcher/Buck Brothers, up to a couple 1-1/2" )

    Sooo, how does one actually USE the firmer chisel?

    ( could not care less about the language part....)

  14. #44
    It sounds like a lot of your chisels are firmers, Steven.
    firmer.png

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by steven c newman View Post
    ( could not care less about the language part....)
    The thing with the language is that it's inextricably tied up with the history of woodworking. Only by understanding one can you pry open the other. I think that Warren is as knowledgable as he is in large part because he cares about and pays such close attention to the textual history.

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