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Thread: Dovetail carcase vs panel frame?

  1. #1

    Dovetail carcase vs panel frame?

    Hello!

    It would seem most cabinetry can be laid down in either the "panel frame" camp, that is mortise and tenoned framework with panel infill, or the "carcase" camp, that being the general extent of the piece having its form made up of solid boards joined wither with dovetails, through wedged tenons or sliding dovetails.

    My question to all here would be why exactly would one choose one form over the other, apart from aesthetics. Is one form inherently stronger than the other? Does it come down to size? Being only small cabinets fit for carcase type construction and larger pieces needing to be a panel frame design?

    From a hand tool perspective it seems the carcase type would be much faster and require less overall man hours, stock dimensioning and joint cutting respectively, and if sufficiently wide boards are at hand, quite large cabinets could be made this way.

    I was even wandering if there were some historic reasoning behind one choice or other?

    Thanks all.
    Josh

  2. #2
    That's a good question. I've seen pictures of antique (maybe 17th Century) European blanket chests made as frame and panel. But our American ancestors seem to have gone mostly for the solid panel style.

    I'd guess that it came down to the amount of labor with the frame and panel taking a lot more labor. Labor was scarce in the American colonies and wood may have been plentiful and low cost.

    Today, almost all kitchen cabinetry is frame and panel but we have tools to make the doors at low cost.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  3. One problem with a wide board is potential wood movement. A single wide board can expand or contract quite a bit as the humidity changes, and that can open up gaps or add stress to joints. A panel that is installed in a frame will also move, but if sufficient space is left in the grooves in which the panel is mounted, the movement isn't transmitted outside the frame.

  4. #4
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    This is pure speculation on my part, but I wonder if it is down to the availability of wide boards rather than labor savings.
    There's never enough time to do it right, but there's always enough time to do it over.

  5. #5
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    You pay your money and take your choice.

    I have done both and feel like an accomplished woodworker should be able to.
    I hope someday to be an accomplished woodworker.

  6. #6
    Around the start of the 18 th century dovetailed carcasses started to take over from the panelled constructions, in the more luxury part if the market. One of the reasons was that dovetailed is better for veneering, something that came up in a big way around that time. More vernaculair furniture was made as panneled construction for a much longer time.

    I think the early American colonists used the panelled construction just a much as their European collegues where they probably learned the trade to begin with.

  7. #7
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    I'll toss in my two cents.

    Wide boards are stronger, but as Mr. Weckesser pointed out, the expansion/contraction movements can be large. This can be fatal where stable tolerances matter, such as doors.

    The best and tightest solution (remember, we need to keep out dust and bugs) IMO, for chests and other casework is solid sides combined with frame and panel bottoms/backs and fronts/doors/lids. The boards handle the shear/racking forces, and the F&P doors/lids/backs keep everything sealed up neatly and tightly. This combination is as ancient as Egypt and probably much older, but still just as valid if not moreso now.

    Don't forget that F&P can be very decorative in ways that solid wood cannot. Take a look at the dramatically shaped and highly carved frame & panels doors in French armoir. Frame and panel doors with arches and bolection molding are also very decorative. Choose the best technique for the particular situation.

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    Great thread. (I don't have anything to contribute beyond what has been said, but I look forward to reading additional responses.)

  9. #9
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    I use both, and decide on the basis of the "look" I seek to create.

    There is more work in a frame-and-panel, since more parts must be sizes and joined. For carcases that will house drawers, there is also the need to add an extra runner to create a coplanar interior with the frame-and-panel. For some, the solid side is considerably less work. However it runs the risk of being less stable as it is more vulnerable to movement.

    I imagine that solid sides was chosen for bash-about strength when building campaign furniture. I have used solid panels in the pieces I have built, simply been because I prefer the clean look. In more modern times, solid appearing sides indicate a construction that is veneered.

    Frame-and-panel was chosen for the lingerie chest as it made it easier to create curves with less wood.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  10. #10
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    There are lots of opinions on this subject. Mine is that it is labor driven. When making frame and panel all by hand it is labor intensive. When a mill comes in to use it is much different. Differing wood thicknesses become more readily available. Solid boards are prone to movement splitting and all of that also. When you need to have something to use now your not interested in how decorative it is. If iron or steel nails had been readily available in early America we wood have seen a lot more nailed stuff and less dovetail and mortise and tenon. I grew up in an era of crates used for furniture regularly and people were glad to get them.
    Jim

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    Derek,
    An off of the subject question:

    Does the "Miss Fishers Murder Mysteries" show in Australia?
    They show here on PBS, and we watch them.

  12. #12
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    [QUOTE=Joshua Stevens;2718628

    My question to all here would be why exactly would one choose one form over the other, apart from aesthetics. Is one form inherently stronger than the other? Does it come down to size? Being only small cabinets fit for carcase type construction and larger pieces needing to be a panel frame design.
    [/QUOTE]

    Josh

    I was reading your question again, and thought I should add some thoughts to the pot.

    The structure of casework craftsmen have chosen to employ in the past, chose nowadays, and will choose in the future was/is/will be driven by many objectives. Aesthetics, cost, functionality, materials availability, and durability are primary factors, I suppose.

    And the craftsman does not make such decisions in a vacuum or by himself. He must always consider the following factors: What is fashionable? What appearance or function does my customer want? What is most consistent with the customers budget and my standards for acceptable quality? Only the craftsman and his customer can make these decisions, which in turn will determine the casework's structure. But there are a few physical factors a craftsman must consider.

    F&P is weaker than solid construction of the same thickness/weight, in bending, twisting, and racking. It's many joints will separate over time and when abused (might take many decades or even centuries). Therefore, where rigidity strength, and durability in the face of abuse are critical, solid wood (or plywood, or even (cringe, MDF/HDF) may be better.

    But while weaker and less rigid, F&P is more flexible, a performance characteristic that is sometimes more useful.

    More importantly, F&P is more dimensionally stable if made correctly., Less warping. Less twisting. Less expanding/shrinking. It makes doors and lids that work better and keep working.

    So I suggest we would be wise to learn how to make and use many types and combinations so we can make intelligent decisions.

    I don't work with my tools for a living anymore, but I order many millions of dollars of expensive casework for my customers every year, and do factory/ workshop inspections routinely. I feel sorry for most of the workers I see because they have no choice in the materials they use or techniques they employ. It all looks good, meets the budget (often unjustifiably high IMO) and is strong and stable enough, but it is essentially throw-away, soon- to-be-garbage. What a dull, soul-crushing job.

    If you have a choice, please make things your great grandchildren will admire and enjoy while you are wistfully whittling willow whistles on the great woodpile in the sky (close your eyes and say that ten time fast!)

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley Covington View Post
    It all looks good, meets the budget (often unjustifiably high IMO) and is strong and stable enough, but it is essentially throw-away, soon- to-be-garbage. What a dull, soul-crushing job.

    If you have a choice, please make things your great grandchildren will admire and enjoy while you are wistfully whittling willow whistles on the great woodpile in the sky (close your eyes and say that ten time fast!)
    Unfortunately, most products produced have a short life span. Look at electronic products, such as a smartphone. While some may use them for five or more years, many people trade them in every two years and the producer stops making software enhancements available at maybe 5 to 8 years. Automobiles are generally replaced after maybe 10 years.

    The people who make such things can look at the products as "essentially throw-away, soon to be garbage" or they can look at the products as being useful and valuable to the buyers, even if it's only for a limited time.

    Kitchen cabinets - to me - fall into the same category. They are not heirloom products. But they (can) provide beauty and a valuable service during their lifetime of maybe 20 years. As a worker, that's something to be proud of. The product you build does not have to last forever to be useful and for you to be proud of it.

    Mike

    [Remember that quality is making what the customer wants, not what you want. Or as Deming said, "Quality is what the customer says it is."]
    Last edited by Mike Henderson; 08-20-2017 at 4:56 PM.
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowell holmes View Post
    Derek,
    An off of the subject question:

    Does the "Miss Fishers Murder Mysteries" show in Australia?
    They show here on PBS, and we watch them.
    Yes, there is also a book series on which the TV series was based.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

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