Black powder pistols

[Brent Cutshall]

I've been thinking about this question for a while now. Didn't see anything in the TOS against it, so here it goes. I've read a lot of good and bad about black powder arms. I've been wondering about black powder Navy Colts. Some people love them and some hate them. Some people say there unreliable because of the powder and the caps. I've got a .50 percussion Hawkin that's pretty reliable, so I don't know what to make of it. Folks used pistols like that in the Civil War, and I'm guessing they were effective. I know I can make bullets for one, powder too, and I've got enough caps to last me a lifetime. Is there anyone here who has a black powder wheel gun(antique or modern reproduction) that can give me power/reliability/usability/self defense stats on one please. Thanks.

[Bert Kemp]

I would go on some SASS websites and ask the black powder shooters there. They shoot these guns all the time in competition in Cowboy action shooting. heres one
http://powdercreekcowboys.com/bpShooting.html

[Mike Henderson]

If you want something for self-defense, I sure wouldn't choose a black powder firearm. I'd choose something modern with a good reputation for reliability, especially for not jamming.

Black powder arms are for historical shooters.

Mike

[Bert Kemp]

Ye3s don't use for personal defense that would be a bad choice.

If you want something for self-defense, I sure wouldn't choose a black powder firearm. I'd choose something modern with a good reputation for reliability, especially for not jamming.

Black powder arms are for historical shooters.

Mike

[Dwight Rutherford]

Go here for expert advice;
muzzleloadingforum.com

[Brent Cutshall]

But what I don't get is, how are they so "underpowered". What makes them so different. You can hot load them and put conical bullets in them if you need to, can't you? It's just a head scratcher for me. Some folks say a Hawkin is underpowered, but one day I took it out shooting. I used a gallon jug filled with water as a target. The only thing I could think was, that poor jug. A regular load and a round ball tore that jug in two, ripped it down the middle! How can a .44 Navy Colt or a .36 (practically the same size as a .357) be that different. I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but it's bothering me to death.

[daryl moses]

How can a .44 Navy Colt or a .36 (practically the same size as a .357) be that different.

It's all about muzzle velocity. Black powder simply can not push a projectile as fast as modern smokeless powder without running into pressure problems.
As an example...........the .36 with black powder can push a 160 gr bullet at 816 fps. A .357 with smokeless powder can push a 158 gr bullet in excess of 1500 fps. The old .44 pushes a 140 gr bullet at 960 fps a .44 mag shoots a 200 grainer at 1600 fps.
Velocity + bullet weight corresponds with energy.
I'm not knocking black powder, I shoot them myself, but you cannot expect them to shoot on par with modern arms shooting smokeless powders.

[Bert Kemp]

Your asking in the wrong place go to the muzzle loading or SSAS websites these people can answer your questions.
What is your intention with black powder. Why not just get a regular modern hand gun???

But what I don't get is, how are they so "underpowered". What makes them so different. You can hot load them and put conical bullets in them if you need to, can't you? It's just a head scratcher for me. Some folks say a Hawkin is underpowered, but one day I took it out shooting. I used a gallon jug filled with water as a target. The only thing I could think was, that poor jug. A regular load and a round ball tore that jug in two, ripped it down the middle! How can a .44 Navy Colt or a .36 (practically the same size as a .357) be that different. I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but it's bothering me to death.

[Tom Stenzel]

One difference is written right on the cans of powder.

On the can of black powder: DANGER-EXPLOSIVE

On the can of smokeless power: DANGER-HIGHLY FLAMMABLE.

Black powder is an explosive being used as a propellant. Smokeless powder IS a propellant. Black powder can develop extremely high pressures but doesn't transfer the energy to the projectile well. Lots of pressure- when the projectile is stopped and just beginning to move.

Smokeless powder will maintain a higher pressure as the projectile accelerates. The result is better energy transfer.

It's similar to a long or recurve bow and a compound. A compound bow shoots an arrow faster. It has a better energy transfer. But long bows and recurves still work. And they don't have 'training wheels' as us Luddites say. It's all in what you want to do and find interesting.

My Black Powder Handgun book has a chapter on load longevity. A cap and ball revolver was left in a 90% humidity chamber for 90 days. Testing after that had the average velocity down 10%. A fresh load would achieve a bit over 1000 feet persecond, after 90 days it was close to 900 fps. That's a lot of lost energy.

Muzzleloaders and black powder certainly can be deadly. But when metallic cartridges and smokeless powder came along people got rid of that old stuff quick. Corrosive powders and primers are also a pain.

The guys playing with black powder are ones like me that just like the smoke and tinker with old timey stuff*. Plus the ones that like having a deer hunting season just for themselves. In Michigan we have a deer muzzle-loading season the start of December.

Although if I planned to deer now I'd take my Savage 99 or my shotgun. I want venison, heck that old junk.

-Tom

*So that's why I hang out in the Neanders forum?

[Brent Cutshall]

Thanks everyone for your replies and help. I have just discovered something I might like, the conversion revolver. I'll look into it a bit more though. Thanks again.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Understanding that I don't keep a loaded firearm around, If you have a muzzle loader, it simply takes too long to load it. If it was all I had, it is what I would use.

From a statistical perspective, the majority of the time, simply producing a firearm ends the confrontation and no shots are fired. Most "bad guys" just don't want to deal with someone who might shoot them, even if they have a firearm of their own. If you pull a muzzle loader, it may not have the initial deterrent effect. Been a while since I read up on it, so I don't really remember where I was reading the stats.

[Chuck Ellis]

I don't know for sure the validity of this statement as I'm not a gun owner nor have any desire to ever be one, but heard or read somewhere that black powder firearms don't require the same registration or licensing as the modern firearms.

[Wade Lippman]

One difference is written right on the cans of powder.

On the can of black powder: DANGER-EXPLOSIVE

On the can of smokeless power: DANGER-HIGHLY FLAMMABLE.

Black powder is an explosive being used as a propellant. Smokeless powder IS a propellant. Black powder can develop extremely high pressures but doesn't transfer the energy to the projectile well. Lots of pressure- when the projectile is stopped and just beginning to move.

Isn't smokeless powder nitrocellulose, and isn't nitrocellulose considered a "higher" explosive than black powder? Do they add something to it to slow down the burn rate?

[Rich Engelhardt]

But what I don't get is, how are they so "underpowered". What makes them so different.

They aren't. Somebody is just talking smack.

A .36 cal Navy is roughly the same as a .38 special - firing a target load (140 grain wadcutter) @ ~ 750 fps.
A .44 cal Colt Army shoots a very respectable - 215 grain bullet, over 40 grains of powder @ 870 fps - for a kinetic energy of 380 foot pounds.
For comparison - a .45acp (Colt 1911) is a 230 grain bullet @ 850 fps for a KE of 369 foot pounds.

The old Black Powder 1860 .44 Army has more "power" than the venerable Colt .45 auto.

The .36 cal Navy was/is no slouch either. It's roughly the same as a .38 S&W (not the same as a .38 special). The .38 S&W was the round of choice for nearly every large city police force for decades - - before it was replaced by the .38 special.

Smokeless can get you more velocity & more power - but - whether more velocity or more power somehow equates with more lethal is open to debate.
I for one would not feel underarmed with a .36 or .44 black powder.
Wild Bill Hickok didn't either. The Navy (two of them) was his go to gun.

Having said that - - my 1851 Navy has several broken parts that I never got around to fixing & I doubt if I ever will. It's a nice display piece.

[Jerry Bruette]

Isn't smokeless powder nitrocellulose, and isn't nitrocellulose considered a "higher" explosive than black powder? Do they add something to it to slow down the burn rate?

Sorta but not really. Black powder explodes and nitrocellulose burns at a fast rate. But there are ways to control the burn rate of smokeless powder. It could be the shape and size of the granules and there are ways to control the surface area of the granules to control the burn rate.

Not all smokeless powder is made up of just nitrocellulose either. There are single base powders and double base powders. Double base powders have some nitroglycerine in them. Both single and double base powders have other ingredients added to help control burning rates.

Black powder is a physical mixture and the "rate of burn" is controlled by the size of the granules hence the grades F, FF, FFF, FFFF.

Whether it's smokeless powder or black powder if either are ignited in a closed container without any type of pressure relief, i.e. an open ended barrel, the results would be an catastrophic failure of the container. And I suppose that could be considered an explosion.