Flat, square, IMPOSSIBLE!?

[Michael J Evans]

Warren has the right of it.

The hard truth is that you are not paying attention. Everyone has the exact same problem at first. Some realize it sooner than others.

Your primary tools are brain, hand and eye. And even ear when your skills become more advanced. Use all of them, not just hand.

Your plane is your secondary tool. The plane's blade is what cuts, not its body, so pay attention to where the blade is when cutting.

Pay careful attention to the board as-is, and compare it to what the finished board needs to be. Sounds so easy, but most people screw this up to one degree or another. It takes a conscious effort. A long ruler and winding sticks will help you see and think and plan. The plan may need to change frequently. Do it.

There are high spots, there are low spots. A plane can't raise low spots, but only lower high spots. You need to pay attention and see the high and low spots. Cross thatch the entire surface of the board with chalk, lumber crayon, or pencil. Circle the high spots. This will help your eye and brain tools pay attention.

Take small short strokes with your plane. Just a couple of inches. ONLY on the high spots. After a couple of strokes (not 6 just 2), check with ruler and winding sticks. Make your eyes see the progress. Notice how the low areas stay cross-thatched, and the high areas are being shaved. Adjust the plan. Re-mark. Repeat.

Sometimes you will make it worse. When that happens, STOP. Use ruler and winding sticks to help your eye tools see the problem, then use your brain tool and figure out why. You must figure out the process that made things worse. Once you figure it out, then you are learning. Don't make the same mistake again.

Stop taking long strokes. They feel like they are accomplishing more, but you stop paying attention and cut wood that doesn't need cutting. When you learn how to pay attention with eye and brain, then your hand will quickly develop the ability to feel how and where the blade is cutting. After this, long strokes can be useful. But not yet.

The pressure of the plane will make the board's hollow areas deflect down a tiny amount away from the blade. Not good. Same thing happens if the supporting surface is not flat. Use a flat surface.

Use shavings, newspaper, cardboard, or even strips of wood, depending on the degree, to shim and keep hollowed areas/corners from deflecting down or rocking.

Stan,
After reading your post I know that's the truth (paying attention). I start to get angry after I've been sweating my ass and probably make matters worse.

It seems so simple know after reading everyone's posts, but I'm always taking full length shavings (or at least trying to).I just assumed a long plane would automatically take down high spots, so I really haven't tried to take localized shavings except on corners.

[Michael J Evans]

What kind of planes are you using? Once you get the board laying flat put that face down. Once you get the twist out use a #6 or 7 plane to go across the board. If you're using a #4 plane this is where your problem is.

I've learned you have to use winding sticks several places along the length not just on each end like you see a lot of guys do. This will tell you where to mark the high spots. Once you get close take 2 or 3 shavings at a time.

I also use a long straight edge to check lengthwise. You can buy an expensive straight edge but I just use a level on longer boards.

Flat enough is very subjective. Its however flat it needs to be. Sorry.

Robert,
I have a 4,5,wooden jack, wooden scrub,and 2 transitional jointer (ones 21" and the other 26" I believe) I tend to go with everything I've read, jack,jointer,smoother. None of them are perfectly flat, but I doubt that's my problem. On this small table, I have strictly used the jack and 21" jointer. Hoping that the two longer planes would reduce my issues.

[Michael J Evans]

John,
I wish I could say I had bad machine habits, but Ive never owned a jointer,planer,router,mortiser etc.

The only time I've ever operated any of those machines was in high school.

I guess I'm starting opposite of most and starting with hand tools. I do own a table saw, chop saw and drill.

[Stanley Covington]

Stan,
After reading your post I know that's the truth (paying attention). I start to get angry after I've been sweating my ass and probably make matters worse.

It seems so simple know after reading everyone's posts, but I'm always taking full length shavings (or at least trying to).I just assumed a long plane would automatically take down high spots, so I really haven't tried to take localized shavings except on corners.

With practice and attention, you will be able to take longer strokes, most of the time, that accomplish the same things as short localized strokes. I think that's a ways down the road for you.

Most people make the same mistake assuming a longer plane will flatten things automatically. T'aint so. It will take a flatter AVERAGE cut than a shorter plane, but it won't compensate for unthinkingly shaving down low spots while high spots remain uncorrected. Shorter planes are easier to use for taking down high spots initially.

Don't forget to cross-thatch, circle, and use your ruler and winding sticks (or alternative. I never use traditional winding sticks, but the principle is identical) a lot. If you do, you will quickly understand exactly what Warren, others, and I have written.

[Kees Heiden]

Maybe I'm being to picky about flatness both ways, I hold my straight edge or square up to my shop lights to check and there's always some gap. When the straight edge isn't held up to the light its usually all good.

What everyone said in the previous posts, but I want to highlight this quote from your post.

You are way too picky!

[john zulu]

Pauls video is a good one and one I've watched literally 15 times or more. I really hate giving up on something, so after a frustrating session I usually watch a video to think about what I'm doing wrong.

Here are 2 videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl5Srx-Ru_U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m231_HKCOWs

It is very possible to flatten the board of any length. Try to get straight grain first.
I would use a pencil over the whole board and remove the marks. Once it is removed it is on the same plane.

[david beck]

John, Thanks for the links to paul sellers videos.

[James Pallas]

The initial assessment of the material is very important. I struggled with material thicknesses at first. I tried to get 1" thicknesses out if 5/4 material 6' long with a 1/2" bow. Very hard to do. I also tried to force the thickness I wanted, "This top has to be 1" thick", 7/8" just won't do. Of course there are times when exactness is required. Things got a lot easier after I learned material assessment better. Then winding sticks, straight edges and good string. Take the high spots first, then work the material to flatness. After that you may be able to decide if you are going to finish up at the thickness you wanted. Sometimes you make it and sometimes you don't. You do have a piece that is flat and will be of value somewhere. That's my story and I'll stick to it.
Good thread by the way.
Jim

[Bill Dindner]

Great advice everyone, I'm no hand tool expert, but I have some experience, although I watch plenty of YouTube. The little skills I have in the hand tool arena have been primarily influenced by in person instruction. I took some classes and have a friend who is a hand tool junkie come over when I'm in a bind to show me how it's done.

Cant offer much in terms of specifics, but I would suggest taking some classes.

[Brian Holcombe]

Check your winding sticks with a known reference to ensure that they do in fact read correctly. Also, something I was thinking about, you may be experiencing flex in the board if it is thin, this will really drive you nuts if you are inexperienced in flattening.

[Prashun Patel]

I would find some personal instruction. If you are able to easily take 1/2" off a board you must know how to sharpen and set a plane.

i suspect you are making a simple technique mistake that will be obvious to someone who can do it easily.

If you cannot find that, then you should check your progress with each stroke of your plane.

In the end there is no substitute for sheer practice.

[lowell holmes]

If I have a high spot, I will mark them and plane away the marks, re-mark them and plane away the marks.

You track the progress this way. Try it

[Nicholas Lawrence]

A lot of good advice here. Having a flat bench that can support the entire stock is important, otherwise you will get flex (not necessarily just with very thin pieces). That will make it hard to plane because even a little flexing (remember your shavings have thicknesses on the order of hundreds or thousands of an inch) can drop the high spots enough that the blade skips over them.

You will then be frustrated by the fact that your straight edge sees a high spot, you have marked a high spot, just like Warren told you, but somehow it is not being taken down. That will lead you to question your straight edge, start messing around with sandpaper on your plane instead of working wood, wonder about your own eyes, lighting, sanity, etc.

Getting that first side flat and gauging from there is also very important, as are the concepts of "flat enough" "square enough" and not caring whether all of the stock is within 1/32 of whatever size is shown in your plan.

Finally, break larger stock down before flattening and squaring. I find it much easier to break down a large board into the pieces I need for the project, then flatten and square the individual pieces, as opposed to trying to flattening the whole board, and then breaking it down.

[Nathan Johnson]

I'm new to hand tools also, and will say, I ended up adding another 2x4 to my benchtop lamination because I planed away way too much material chasing flat and twist-free. The statement about questioning the straightedge and my own eyes is so, so true.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I suck with a handplane. There, I said it. I have these fancy planes, but when I try to flatten an edge to join to boards, I inevitably end up with a crown in a middle. Solution? I plane out the middle and then I suddenly have two perfectly matted boards. And yes, I guess I have seen some of the "pros" do something similar.

So, what is the point of my embarrassed confession? Sometimes it helps to identify the high and low spots, and then make sure that your plane cuts there.

With my meager skills, I have done a passable job of flattening things, but it takes a long time to do.