How to fix this framing?

[Thomas Marr]

I'm building a raised center isle pole barn (see last pic below). The beam holding the loft floor is bolted to the center posts. Normally, I would prefer to "let in" this beam but didn't want to weaken the post because it has to carry shear forces for the roof. Further, due to an error, the IJI's for the loft were slightly shorter than needed and don't extend all the way to the outside beam "A" in the diagram below. So, beam "B" is carrying the loft load, and is only bolted and nailed to the posts. This isn't sufficient in my view. How should I improve beam B's load bearing capacity? I could nail another board to the post under the beam, or attach some type of bracket, to direct more of the load to the post. Hope's this makes sense. Any suggestions?

Framing issue:


Barn

[David Gutierrez]

The post should be let in, bad practice to rely on the bolts for a column beam connection. There are no shear loads on the post and if there were they would be resisted by the beam. Neither the shed roof or the main roof impose shear forces on the post.

[Adam Herman]

can you double the a side and leave a single on the b side?

how about adding a beam between the posts using something like this?
https://www.strongtie.com/specialtyc...jt_tie/p/hcjtz

looks like about 15 feet of span?

[Thomas Marr]

A little more info. I'm following a barn plan provided by the state of TN. I checked the snow loads and the plan is compatible with where I live.

The plan calls for a "scab" to be placed under the beam on each post (which I did but not shown in my drawing). However, I also understand that proper construction technique usually requires vertical loads not depend on fasteners for load bearing. So, I starting thinking about the issue and it bugged me.

The i-joists span 20' and are on 12" centers. There's a post every 8.' The beam is a doubled 2 x 12.

I do agree with David. I could go back and let in at least one 2 x 12. It's a lot of work though. I'll research the bracket Adam linked (thanks for that).

[Jim Andrew]

Might not look the best but why not glue and screw a scab onto the post? Put one on each side of the post so both 2x12's are supported.

[Bill Dufour]

I think you need to take a long look at the Simpson catalog. Here in California I think you would need steel top to bottom at every corner to hold the roof down. Maybe even at every main post. What kind of wind loads will you have?
I would suggest a shear panel at each corner something like a a vertical 24" 2x4 or 2x6 nailed to the post and a 24" triangle with a proper nailing schedule. Will the gable end walls be a proper shear wall top to bottom?
Bill D.

https://www.iccsafe.org/cs/codes/Doc..._RB144-168.pdf

[John P Clark]

As a professional engineer in Colorado and several other states, I find it very disturbing that you solicit advice from a group of people that do not have the experience, training or education to determine how to solve this problem. Go find a licensed engineer in your state and get the correct way to solve your problem.

[Bill Dufour]

something like this from Simpson might be a idea but I think it needs to be heavier and probably bolted not just nailed. I agree with the previous poster if this structure is going to be inspected or insured you need to get someone in who knows what they are doing.
i also do not like the connection of the joists to the beam. It looks like they are just toenailed? Will there be a rim joist and blocking to prevent rollover? cutting blocks to fit those joists looks a little harder then standard 2x lumber.
Bill D.

https://www.strongtie.com/twopiecepo.../lce_cap/p/lce

[Mel Fulks]

John, there are lots of engineers here who give good advice. And "professional engineer" is redundant.

[Thomas Marr]

[QUOTE=Bill Dufour;2722043]I also do not like the connection of the joists to the beam. It looks like they are just toe-nailed? Will there be a rim joist and blocking to prevent rollover? cutting blocks to fit those joists looks a little harder then standard 2x lumber.
Bill D.

The joists are toe nailed to the beam and tied in with a standard 1 1/8 rim board (now shown in my quick rendering but can be seen in the pic above). The loft flooring is 3/4 AvanTech glued and rig nailed.

As to getting a professional engineer's opinion, it's good advice. However, this is a fairly simple problem on a barn that doesn't require inspection. It's far more than strong enough currently for my use. However, I want to ensure any future owner doesn't have a problem from this specific . As noted...I'm following a plan from the state of TN. So I didn't just hack this up from my own design.

The image below from the TN plan shows the use of "support blocks" on shed posts for the rafters (blue circle). Note...there's no support block shown under the loft floor girders (red circle). This is the area under discussion in this thread. Also, these girders are not let in to the post in the plan. However, I'm wondering if this is insufficient. Of course...it depends on the live and static loads anticipated for the loft. Even so...going from the plan, it would appear this isn't required. Which is surprising...given that a barn is likely to have some fairly large loads in the loft from hay. But maybe I'm over thinking this.

[Robert Engel]

Notching in beams is always best. If you're worried about it, you can span with a length of lumber.

Use standard joist clips on the rafters if you're concerned. You don't live in a hurricane zone so its not a big issue.

You don't need support blocks under the plates if you bolt them to the posts.

Are you in a big snow area? If so, 3/12 is kind of a low pitch, no?

[Thomas Marr]

Thanks Bill and Robert. Some more details.

All the girders are bolted to the posts with scabs under. Every rafter has Simpson brackets to every girder (four per rafter since the girders sandwich the posts). The top rafters have straps across the top of the rafters plus a collar tie in the bottom third of the rater length. The posts are the CORRECT ACQ rating for direct burial, which is a "special order" here (what does that tell you about what most people use?). The posts have anti-lift sleeves and are set on 12" deep 24" x 24" pads. The walls are paneled with 5/8 ply plus 3/8 siding (also rated for shear itself). There's a 45 degree 6x6 brace bolted on all posts (expect the shed, where it's only on the end posts).

Winds are fairly low here and the snow load is 30 lbs per sq. ft. I over sized the rafters and spacing. The final pitch is 5:12 (agree 3:12 is a bit low). I did look up the proper nailing pattern for various lumbers sizes...which isn't easy since, to be proper, you should consider lumber species too which can vary with each delivery. I tend to like southern pine over douglas fir. The fir is harder but splits too easy on the ends.

I've tried to be thourgh. I've seen local contractors use ground contact lumber for direct burial, put aluminum flashing over treated lumber, skip the termit barrier, use improper nail patterns, skip metal connectors (simpson) where required, provide no attention to possible post lift, undersize pad thickness, etc... The contractor may know proper code and technique but the imported labor frequently does not while the contractor is off bidding the next job. Not a dig...it's just how it works.

That said, I'm no expert and appreciate everyone taking time to reply. This type of post is easy to "skip" for various reasons. In general, I've tried to over build since I'm doing this myself. But the girder for the loft, since it's not let in, was questionable I thought.

I'll post some more pictures later. This barn has a full poly-carbonate roof and some other features that might interest some.

[David Gutierrez]

Thomas
it can be done as shown. Certainly have seen blocks or scabs placed below beams to provide bearing. If you decide to go this route through bolt the blocks with 1/2" galv bolts. it I not good practice to depend on bolts for wood beam connections. Do not rely on nails or deck screws for this connection.
By the way I have been a licensed Architect for many years.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... plan calls for a "scab" to be placed under the beam on each post ...

I am interpreting your 'scab' as a (non-decorative) corbel, bolted to the post. If the scab extends to the floor, I'd call it a jack stud. If you place a jack stud (nailed to the post) under each beam, the beam will never move. Just make sure the beam sits firmly on top of the jack stud; gaps here are an inspection red-tag in this part of the world.

[Peter Christensen]

Split rings with a bolt through the centre were developed a long time ago. You could put the shoulders/scab plates under the beams with them.
http://www.portlandbolt.com/products...s/split-rings/