Sources for files?

[brian zawatsky]

I'm in need of some 4" three-square needle files to file a very fine toothed saw. Anyone have a good source for them?

[Patrick Chase]

I'm in need of some 4" three-square needle files to file a very fine toothed saw. Anyone have a good source for them?

Otto Frei carries Glardon Vallorbe, which are good: http://www.ottofrei.com/Glardon-Vall...7?custcol15=30

Note that needle files have different proportions (smaller faces, much longer tangs/shanks) than taper files. A 200 mm #2 3-square file is actually suitable for smaller work than a 4" XX-Slim taper file.

[brian zawatsky]

Otto Frei carries Glardon Vallorbe, which are good: http://www.ottofrei.com/Glardon-Vall...7?custcol15=30

Note that needle files have different proportions (smaller faces, much longer tangs/shanks) than taper files. A 200 mm #2 3-square file is actually suitable for smaller work than a 4" XX-Slim taper file.

Thanks Patrick. According to Vallorbe's sizing chart, a 200mm file has a 6.5mm face, which is actually larger than the face on the 3" extra slim file that I was filing with. Thanks for the link, lots of good info there too.

[Patrick Chase]

Thanks Patrick. According to Vallorbe's sizing chart, a 200mm file has a 6.5mm face, which is actually larger than the face on the 3" extra slim file that I was filing with. Thanks for the link, lots of good info there too.

A Glardon-Vallorbe 200 mm 3-square needle file has a 4.4 mm face. See p. 7 in their catalog. I have these files and am quite sure that they're not 6 mm.

Which sizing chart did you use?

[brian zawatsky]

A Glardon-Vallorbe 200 mm 3-square needle file has a 4.4 mm face. I have these files and am quite sure that they're not 6 mm.

Which sizing chart did you use?

the one on Otto Frei's website

[Patrick Chase]

the one on Otto Frei's website

I'd suggest Glardon-Vallorbe's catalog instead. I have these files (bought from Otto Frei) and can attest to its accuracy. 4.4 mm.

[Normand Leblanc]

I have a bunch of vintage Nicholson 4" xx-fine and I just measured 4.9 mm face.

[Patrick Chase]

I have a bunch of vintage Nicholson 4" xx-fine and I just measured 4.9 mm face.

There's more to it than simply face width of course. Too large of a face merely causes you to "waste" tooth life in the center, but doesn't impact the quality of the work. The "sharpness" of the corners is what ultimately limits how fine-toothed of a saw you can sharpen, and that's where needle files tend to do much better than taper files even if the face widths are comparable. Of course that's also why needle files cost a lot more.

BTW i just went down and measured a 200 mm Glardon-Vallorbe, bought from Otto Frei. 4.4 mm on the nose (I measured the untoothed "blank" as that's how files are specified).

[Normand Leblanc]

There's more to it than simply face width of course. Too large of a face merely causes you to "waste" tooth life in the center, but doesn't impact the quality of the work.

What I've experienced with files is their corners are weaker than their faces but I haven't tried needle files yet.

(I measured the untoothed "blank" as that's how files are specified).

TIL something
I measured again on the blank portion at 4.7 mm.

[Todd Stock]

Lee Valley for equivalent Bahco needle file, Craftsman Studio for 4" xxs from Grobet...$2.50. Nicholson US old stock on Ebay.

[Patrick Chase]

Lee Valley for equivalent Bahco needle file, Craftsman Studio for 4" xxs from Grobet...$2.50. Nicholson US old stock on Ebay.

I have several copies of the Bahco, and I'm nearly certain that it's the same file as the Glardon-Vallorbe. The size, toothing, and profile are identical, it's labelled as Swiss made, and the Glardon-Vallorbe appears to be the only remaining file maker in Switzerland (both according to their promotional video on Otto Frei and based on some additional searching that I did).

Lee Valley prices very fairly for most things, but $12.50 is too much for that needle file. I can get the same "Bahco-branded" version for less elsewhere, and I can get the same file from the same factory labelled "Glardon-Vallorbe" for $7.60 to $9.50 (depending on qty) from Otto Frei. For that price they should be selling a Valtitan.

The other major source of needle files is Corradi in Italy, who sell their own brand and almost certainly make the ones labelled "Grobet USA" (the Grobet USA taper files are made in Mexico, and I've had bad experiences with them). LV sells a nice Corradi needle file set elsewhere on their site, but for some reason they don't carry the ones that would be appropriate for saw-filing.

If you want to spend a lot of money and/or you have particularly hard saws, there are always the Vallorbe Valtitan needle files: http://www.ottofrei.com/Glardon-Vall...ol_of_xc_cut=5. At Rc72 they'll cut even fairly hard metals...

[brian zawatsky]

The Grobet USA taper files are junk, in my experience. I bought a full box of 5" 2XS a couple years ago, and 6 of the 12 were unusable. Won't make that mistake again. As far as taper files go, I think Bahco and Tome Feteira are probably the best on the market currently. Neither of them can touch a vintage USA Nicholson though.

I ordered a couple Vallorbe 140 mm's. My guess was off - the saw is a 19ppi Garlick joinery saw that a friend asked me to sharpen for him. 19pt teeth are TINY!!

on another note, I would never recommend anyone buy that saw. It's klunky, heavy, and the plate is ridiculously thick for such a fine-toothed saw.

[Phil Mueller]

Another source for Glardon needle files is Blackburn Tools.

[Patrick Chase]

The Grobet USA taper files are junk, in my experience.

Indeed. I bought a box of 5" XSlim files from them a while back that were almost as wide as their catalog said their 5" Slim files should be. I had bought the files from their retail arm (b2bprofessionaltools IIRC), but they refused to accept the return. After much debate they refunded my money (while STILL refusing to accept the return) and "fired" me as a customer. A couple other boxes were the right size, but had poorly formed teeth at the points and didn't last long in use. Grobet USA's taper files are not worth it IMO.

Needle files are a different matter. It's actually fairly hard to get a bad needle file. They're basically all made by Glardon-Vallorbe or Corradi as far as I can tell, and both manufacturers have their acts together. Glardon, Grobet-Swiss, Bahco, and Nicholson are all made in Switzerland and are all identical in terms of profile, toothing, dimensions, etc. I strongly suspect them to all be made at the Glardon factory in Vallorbe (I posted pictures on SMC showing just how identical they are a year or so back). Grobet-USA and Corradi needle files are similarly identical and both made in Italy, almost certainly by Corradi.

In terms of corner sharpness I don't see much difference between 150, 180, and 200 mm needle files. I find the larger files to be easier to work with even on my finest saws (20 tpi) and don't bother downsizing. Totally subjective preference though.

[Patrick Chase]

BTW and on a related note, there's lots of interesting-looking stuff showing up on Corradi's online store: http://www.corradishop.com/. These seem relevant to the current discussion: http://www.corradishop.com/index.php...products_id=27. Corradis taper more gradually than Glardons, so a slightly longer file might be preferable to ensure enough toothing at the full width.

These also look interesting, though they unfortunately don't seem to do 2X slim tapers.

The shipping is steep for single tools, but becomes reasonable if you buy in bulk. If I hadn't just stocked up on Liogier rasps and rifflers I'd be tempted to give them a try.

EDIT: The Corinox needle files also look interesting. Basically the same idea as Valtitan, but remarkably cheap (6.8 Euros for 180 mm three square)