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Thread: Shaper as a router table replacement?

  1. #1

    Shaper as a router table replacement?

    I am thinking about picking up a small shaper, something around 1.5hp-2hp. I would not have space for both the shaper and my current router table in the shop. My RT setup is a shop made table made from a 4'x 20" piece of laminate counter top mounted on rolling cabinets with a jessem lift and incra wonder fence, porter cable router 1.75hp.

    My current limitations are space, I only have room for 1 and i can not add another 220 circuit so it needs to be 110v. Over the last couple of years the table top has started to warp slightly and the router lift face plate no longer sits 100% flat. The router motor also should probably be replaced with something larger as well.

    My options as i see them are:
    1) stay with a RT setup and get a new table and router.
    2) sell the incra fence and lift and purchase a shaper.

    My questions are:

    1) will a shaper replace all the functions of a router table?
    2) can I still use 1/2" router bits in a shaper that has an adapter?
    3) would a shaper of this size be superior to an updated RT setup with my current fence and lift and a new table and larger router?


    The other factor to consider is we are moving next year and i will be setting up a new shop that will hopefully have more space and will definitely have more 220v circuits available.
    Thanks
    Last edited by Evan Stewart; 09-06-2017 at 8:35 AM. Reason: Update

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan Stewart View Post
    I am thinking about picking up a small shaper, something around 1.5hp-2hp. I would not have space for both the shaper and my current router table in the shop. My RT setup is a shop made table made from a 4'x 20" piece of laminate counter top mounted on rolling cabinets with a jessem lift and incra wonder fence, porter cable router 1.75hp.

    My current limitations are space, I only have room for 1 and i can not add another 220 circuit so it needs to be 110v. Over the last couple of years the table top has started to warp slightly and the router lift face plate no longer sits 100% flat. The router motor also should probably be replaced with something larger as well.

    My options as i see them are:
    1) stay with a RT setup and get a new table and router.
    2) sell the incra fence and lift and purchase a shaper.

    My questions are:

    1) will a shaper replace all the functions of a router table?
    2) can I still use 1/2" router bits in a shaper that has an adapter?
    3) would a shaper of this size be superior to an updated RT setup with my current fence and lift and a new table and larger router?

    Thanks
    Evan

    1.) Yes, a shaper performs all of the same functions as a router mounted in a table. One thing a shaper does that a router does not, is have the ability to spin a bit in both directions. This features allows you to feed stock from either direction, based on grain orientation. It also makes template work easier as you have the ability to start and stop from either direction. No creeping up on a climb cut to finish a template piece. Of course, the shaper you purchase must have the ability to reverse direction.

    2.) Yes, but the feed rate will need to be modified, especially on smaller bits. A router spins a 20,000+ RPM, and a shaper is usually under 10,000 rpm. You'll need to slow the feed rate in a shaper to end up with the same number of cuts per inch as with a router.

    3.) This is a hard one. I've seen some incredible router table setups.
    It all depends on what your needs are. If you have no big cabinet, or architectural work to do, the shapers you listed will do a nice job. However, you're pretty close to having everything you need for a premium router table setup. A Benchdog Cast Iron router table, and a big Porter Cable 3+ HP router motor, would end the problem of making, or buying, a new top. It would also be considerably less $$$$ than a shaper by the time you make the first cut.

    Other thoughts;
    I would keep your INCRA fence, but sell the lift if you go the shaper route. It can be adapted to work with a shaper, and it will more than likely be better than whatever OEM fence ships with a shaper. Fence systems for shapers can cost big $$$$.

    My personal opinion is that a shaper is a better platform, dollar for dollar, than a router mounted in a table. It has the ability to expand into areas a router simply can't.
    With a router the compelling argument is the cost of bits, versus shaper cutters. With insert type shaper cutter heads, that's no longer a compelling argument.

    Your power restraint, and what you already have invested in your current setup, is what would make me stay with what you already have and just upgrade the router top and motor. You can definitely do a lot of work with a 2HP and less shaper, but you really do want some power and that means 3HP and up.
    Last edited by Mike Cutler; 09-06-2017 at 8:55 AM.
    "The first thing you need to know, will likely be the last thing you learn." (Unknown)

  3. #3
    So in my previous post, I told of how my shop was full of tools and I had just purchased my quest machine.

    I still want a shaper some day. Hopefully with a power feeder

  4. #4
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    Hi Evan, I don't own a router, so yes the shaper does everything you want, and much more than a router.

    I would go for a 3 HP machine, since you have an existing 240 volt circuit, use it for the shaper.

    The Euroblock heads are inexpensive, and the HSS knives are around $20 a pair. A set of knives will do between 1,000 and 2,000 linear feet of profile in solid wood.

    As Mike pointed out, reverse spindle rotation allows you run with the grain, something a router can't do. I would never consider exchanging my shaper for a router..

    The only modern shaper book I've found is The Spindle Moulder Handbook by Stephenson, all the other books are decades out of date with respect to safety, work processes, guards etc.

    https://www.amazon.ca/Spindle-Moulde.../dp/0854421505

    Regards, Rod.
    Last edited by Rod Sheridan; 09-06-2017 at 9:00 AM. Reason: added link to book

  5. #5
    I have a grizzly small shaper with the router bit adapter. When I was looking at these several years ago I found that some of the small shapers required an extension on top of the table when the router bit adapter was installed. That was because the adapter extended too far to allow the bit to retract to near table level. The griz does not have that problem. I've been very happy with it. I do have a router table also which allows me to avoid multiple setups when machining cabinet door parts.

  6. #6
    This is definitely a difficult decision. I can totally see how having the ability to reverse directions would be very helpful. I also would like to be able to do more molding profiles and all of the other things that a shaper can do. I'm kind of at a crossroads with my router table setup as i stated earlier and it looks like the cost of replacing my table top with a cast iron top and a new motor will run me about $675 and about $450 with an incra table. A new shaper of the smaller size i am looking at is a bit more of an investment but if it increases efficiency and quality it's well worth it.

    I don't want to buy a smaller shaper now and regret not waiting to get a larger unit when I have a larger shop and more power. I would say that I'm probably leaning more toward upgrading my RT and using that for the next year until we move and i will have the power and space for a larger shaper if it still seems like a good choice.

    For you guys that have had both:

    Do you find a shaper easier to use?

    Do you find the finished product of better quality or consistency?

    How does the reduction in speed (rpm) effect control of the stock and smoothness of the cuts?

    Which machine works best for profiling stock that is longer than 8' ?

    Which is better for making small simple profiles on small dimension stock longer than 8'?

    Thanks again for all your help

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Evan Stewart View Post
    This is definitely a difficult decision. I can totally see how having the ability to reverse directions would be very helpful. I also would like to be able to do more molding profiles and all of the other things that a shaper can do. I'm kind of at a crossroads with my router table setup as i stated earlier and it looks like the cost of replacing my table top with a cast iron top and a new motor will run me about $675 and about $450 with an incra table. A new shaper of the smaller size i am looking at is a bit more of an investment but if it increases efficiency and quality it's well worth it.

    I don't want to buy a smaller shaper now and regret not waiting to get a larger unit when I have a larger shop and more power. I would say that I'm probably leaning more toward upgrading my RT and using that for the next year until we move and i will have the power and space for a larger shaper if it still seems like a good choice.

    For you guys that have had both:

    Do you find a shaper easier to use?
    Yes, unless you need a colleted bit to do your work, such as cutting a dado or groove 8" from the edge of the workpiece.

    Do you find the finished product of better quality or consistency?
    Yes, both.

    How does the reduction in speed (rpm) effect control of the stock and smoothness of the cuts?
    The cutterhead is much larger so your tip speed is the same or higher, so the smoothness is as good or better. BTW, my shaper is a direct drive unit running at a pretty low speed of ~7k rpm.

    Which machine works best for profiling stock that is longer than 8' ?
    Shaper.

    Which is better for making small simple profiles on small dimension stock longer than 8'?
    Shaper, as long as you have a feeder or good featherboards/hold-downs. Otherwise you'd be better off with a router and its much smaller bit.

  8. #8
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    I have a homemade router table with a melamine top and a Hitachi M12V router. The fence is homemade also. I went through the decision some time ago. I went with a cheaper 3hp shaper. Since then I haven't used my router table. All that being said, I hated using the shaper because there were several thing that were a pain to set up and the fence was one of them. The shaper fence was only slightly better then my router table fence which I hated. I have since upgraded my shaper to something with a nicer fence and it is a joy to set up and use. The router table will probably see even less use now.

    If you go with a cheaper shaper you will probably want to keep the incra fence and see if you can adapt it to the shaper. I don't have any issues running router bits. I also purchased a Amana profile heads with the interchangeable knives to cut down costs of cutters.

  9. #9
    I faced the same decision except for having more 220V lines available - as you will have after the move.

    I tried an expensive router table combo and the smaller shapers (Jet, General) and found the latter to be neither fish nor fowl - an unhappy compromise with many of the limitations of both.

    A good router table /router combo will set you back about as much as a good used 3HP shaper with power feeder. Big shapers are hard to set up, but a joy to use -my power feeder is the only power tool I have that isn't set to its maximum speed by default - with the only real downside being the cost of 3/4" cutter heads. (I'm getting the King head kit, but have no experience with it yet). Overall it's going to depend on what you value: shapers are quieter, more powerful, and more verstatile and great for production runs but harder to use for making one or two examplars of something.

  10. #10
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    I'm in the middle of doing a light restoration of a Grizzly G1035. As far as comparing power, the 1 1/2 HP motor is about 4 times the weight of my 3hp router if that says anything.

    As far as the 220V circuit is concerned, why do you need another one? I have my DC on 110, and only have one 220 circuit which all my machines are plugged into. Since I'm a one man shop I only use one machine at a time. I've had it setup this way for about a decade with no issues.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan Stewart View Post
    This is definitely a difficult decision. I can totally see how having the ability to reverse directions would be very helpful. I also would like to be able to do more molding profiles and all of the other things that a shaper can do. I'm kind of at a crossroads with my router table setup as i stated earlier and it looks like the cost of replacing my table top with a cast iron top and a new motor will run me about $675 and about $450 with an incra table. A new shaper of the smaller size i am looking at is a bit more of an investment but if it increases efficiency and quality it's well worth it.

    I don't want to buy a smaller shaper now and regret not waiting to get a larger unit when I have a larger shop and more power. I would say that I'm probably leaning more toward upgrading my RT and using that for the next year until we move and i will have the power and space for a larger shaper if it still seems like a good choice.

    For you guys that have had both:

    Do you find a shaper easier to use?

    Do you find the finished product of better quality or consistency?

    How does the reduction in speed (rpm) effect control of the stock and smoothness of the cuts?

    Which machine works best for profiling stock that is longer than 8' ?

    Which is better for making small simple profiles on small dimension stock longer than 8'?

    Thanks again for all your help

    A shaper is no easier, or harder, to use than a router. It's just a little different approach. I have 6, or 7 routers in the shop, and they're not going anywhere. I still have my PC8529 mounted in a table also.

    A shaper with a power feeder, or even hand fed with board buddies or feather boards, will exceed the router.

    The speed isn't an issue. Shaper cutters are larger in diameter and heavier than router bits. That's a lot of mass comparatively.

    A shaper works better on long stock, regardless of the profile. The machine is going to weigh 300lbs. plus. That's a lot of stability. Generally whatever is holding the material to the shaper table is going to be heavier and more robust than would normally be found on a router table
    "The first thing you need to know, will likely be the last thing you learn." (Unknown)

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by rudy de haas View Post
    I faced the same decision except for having more 220V lines available - as you will have after the move.

    I tried an expensive router table combo and the smaller shapers (Jet, General) and found the latter to be neither fish nor fowl - an unhappy compromise with many of the limitations of both.

    A good router table /router combo will set you back about as much as a good used 3HP shaper with power feeder. Big shapers are hard to set up, but a joy to use -my power feeder is the only power tool I have that isn't set to its maximum speed by default - with the only real downside being the cost of 3/4" cutter heads. (I'm getting the King head kit, but have no experience with it yet). Overall it's going to depend on what you value: shapers are quieter, more powerful, and more verstatile and great for production runs but harder to use for making one or two examplars of something.
    I'll expand upon the "smaller shapers [being] neither fish nor fowl," once you have a shaper, you will want to use it to do tasks that you can do on a shaper easily but cannot do easily if at all on a router table, such as panel raising in a single pass, running stacked cutters for a single pass cope or stick, or in making both cheek cuts and trimming a tenon to length with one pass. That generally takes a larger shaper, which have a bore of more than an inch and over 3 hp. 1 1/4" bore cutterheads don't cost that much more than 3/4" bore units, and if you get an insert knife head, the knives are identical between 3/4" bore and 1 1/4" bore cutterheads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Day View Post
    I'm in the middle of doing a light restoration of a Grizzly G1035. As far as comparing power, the 1 1/2 HP motor is about 4 times the weight of my 3hp router if that says anything.

    As far as the 220V circuit is concerned, why do you need another one? I have my DC on 110, and only have one 220 circuit which all my machines are plugged into. Since I'm a one man shop I only use one machine at a time. I've had it setup this way for about a decade with no issues.
    I'll second that, you only need enough 240 volt lines to run whatever machines you run at the same time. I have two lines, because my dust collector is a 3 hp 240 volt unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Cutler View Post
    A shaper is no easier, or harder, to use than a router. It's just a little different approach. I have 6, or 7 routers in the shop, and they're not going anywhere. I still have my PC8529 mounted in a table also.

    A shaper with a power feeder, or even hand fed with board buddies or feather boards, will exceed the router.

    The speed isn't an issue. Shaper cutters are larger in diameter and heavier than router bits. That's a lot of mass comparatively.

    A shaper works better on long stock, regardless of the profile. The machine is going to weigh 300lbs. plus. That's a lot of stability. Generally whatever is holding the material to the shaper table is going to be heavier and more robust than would normally be found on a router table
    I'll say a shaper requires a little more care than a router to use. The cutterheads are larger which means running small pieces takes a lot more care in setup to avoid kickback vs. running them on a router table with a much smaller bit. The cutterheads take more care in installing as you can accidentally mount them upside down and/or run them backwards, while a router only spins one direction and the arbor only goes in one way. Routers don't generally accept anything except a solid HSS or brazed carbide bit, while you can use all sorts of knife head tooling on a shaper which depending on type requires a smidge more care (a Euroblock or corrugated head- just point the knives the right way and don't forget to tighten the gib screws) or a lot more care (lock edge or slip knife heads) to set up. You can choose to cut the workpiece face up or face down depending on the spindle rotation and the cutterhead and its orientation, and cutting face up with the cutterhead above the work requires more care than cutting face down as all router bits cut. They are not dangerous or difficult tools to learn to use, but they do require a little more care and attention. I had never used a shaper until I bought one, cleaned it up, and built fences for it, and have learned how to be safe and productive fairly easily.

  13. #13
    Phillip, you are right about being able to run them face up or face down but all the standard shaper sets are intended to be run face down counter clockwise. Other way is special order. The good thing about face down is if you don't have wide belt sander you can use "portable " belt sander to sand face side of all material before machining. Then the assembled doors are flush on face side and without cross grain scratches,and can be finish sanded with orbital sander.

  14. #14
    So as i expected it sounds like most or all of the shortcomings I find in my router table would be solved with a decent shaper. My main complaint with my RT is that I find it difficult to get truly consistent cuts when I mill multiple boards over 8'. Yes with feather boards and rollers I can get very close but when running long boards there is always that point when I have to reset my grip and stop feeding which usually causes a blemish.

    I have definitely outgrown my shop and i have spent a lot of time trying to maximize space and efficiency to make up for that. At this point I don't think there is anything else I can do with my current space that will dramatically improve this beyond what I have done over the last few years. I have worked very hard over the last couple of years to move from 90% renovation, finish carpentry, restoration and 10% shop work to 100% shop work. For the last year i have been able to do this, and for the last 6 months I have been getting more work than I can handle. The fact that I have had to let several jobs go recently due to the backlog of projects is really my driving force for wanting the shaper now.

    I suspect a shaper will be like a bandsaw. I bought a cheap used one because I didn't think it was something I would use a lot. After realizing all the ways I could work it into my system I wished I had bought a better and larger one a long time ago. For this reason and from what you guys have said, it's probably the best choice to get a mid size shaper with a power feeder. Based on the configuration of my shop and the fact that my table saw and DC are using my 220V circuits it is probably best to wait. When i factor in hauling another 300+ lb machine into and back out again when we move it does seem best to wait until I can get the best machine I can.

    It also sounds like it won't be a waste to upgrade my RT for the time being and have both when I get a new shop.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Fulks View Post
    Phillip, you are right about being able to run them face up or face down but all the standard shaper sets are intended to be run face down counter clockwise. Other way is special order. The good thing about face down is if you don't have wide belt sander you can use "portable " belt sander to sand face side of all material before machining. Then the assembled doors are flush on face side and without cross grain scratches,and can be finish sanded with orbital sander.
    The knives for the insert heads often have different profiles on different faces. You would have to raise the spindle to expose the other profile and run face up or flip the cutterhead over and reverse the spindle direction to run face down to use the profile on the "bottom" of the knife.

    Brazed cutters are typically how you describe, designed to run the workpiece face down running CCW. Anything symmetrical though, you can run in either rotation direction. I often use the clockwise spindle on my double spindle shaper with opposite-rotating but non-reversible spindles to run things such as straight groovers/rabbet heads and coves, and feeding them face down, but from left to right instead of the usual right to left. The spindle tops are threaded on with no drawbar or tabbed washer spindle tops- so unable to spun the "other" direction safely as the top could unthread and fly off. The PO of my shaper still ran both spindles CCW, he Locktited on the CW spindle top and wired the motor to run backwards!

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