Should i be able to make rail and stile cuts in one pass?

[andy photenas]

Hello all, I have a small to mid size shop and i am really working hard to get my lead time on a custom kitchen down. one thing that i notice costs me a lot of time and im not sure if its needed is i a 2nd pass on all of my profile cuts(jointer then back for 2nd) and i get a face chip out on a lot of the cope cuts. I find if i do the cope in 2 passes they do this much much less or not at all.
The way i am making them now is im using shaper tables with router rail and stile bits in them the profile shaper has a small power feeder on it (different machines). From reading on this site I have learned that the rpms are a bit low for this job on a shaper so i plan to buy 3 wing shaper bit sets but they are expensive-ish.

So my question is, should I be able to get one pass (with the grain facing the proper way for milling ofc) one rail and stile cuts with little to no chipping ?

[Rod Sheridan]

Yes, you do of course need a backer board when cutting the cope profile........Rod.

[David Kumm]

Also depends on size of shaper and quill. I've always gotten a better result with just one pass but I run larger machines and larger diameter cutters. Dave

[Mel Fulks]

For rails I use material at least 5and1/2 inches wide then rip to needed size before running sticking .That way I can use the power feeder. Of course you need a rub collar in middle of stack rather than cutter,many sets come with both. High Rpm is a must for the small diameter sets. Several times I have had co -workers ask me "what's wrong with these cutters". Problem was they had machine set on low speed. The small diameter sets must have at least 10,000 rpm. I always use 10,000 with the bigger diameter sets too.

[Wayne Lomman]

Yes you should be able to do the job in one pass. You need to research the specs for your cutters so that you use the correct rpm and feed rate. I suspect these are not correct at the moment. Replacing your router cutters with shaper cutters is the direction to go as soon as you have funds available. The productivity gain will make you wish you had changed sooner. Cheers

[Martin Wasner]

With a proper setup, there's no reason to do any of it in less than a single pass.


What are you using for shapers?

What are you using for cutters?

Are you oversizing the length of rails?

Are you running left and right copers, or using a coped backer block to protect the profile?

Do you cope then stick, or are you doing the sticking in full length rips?

[Martin Wasner]

Oops. I reread.

Router bits aren't for making doors on a production level.

My business has grown exponentially in the last few years. The very first thing I started going hard on upgrading was my door building process. I had mismatched insert heads running in light duty shapers. I swapped out the cheap yellow shapers for heavier Italian shapers, then dumped all of the cutters I was using for insert heads. I think I dropped almost $7k on heads. I think the total was about $20k that year in upgrades.

One of THE BEST investments I've made. As long as I don't push the knives too far, I only get tear out in the nastiest of material on either stick or cope.

As far as I'm concerned, I was doing it completely wrong, and I'm still making a ton of compromises. The next phase of improvement will be getting an S4S machine to stick and size in a single pass, a rotary door clamp to keep the cycle times up but increase clamp time, and lastly in automatic coper where I don't need a backer or I can run pairs of rails. It'll be another $50k to make that happen, but going off of what I've already done, it'll be smart money. Three years ago I was doing a bit over $100k on my own, with one other person we should be over $300k this year. Three years ago I was in 2500' of rented space, now I'm in 8000' that I own.

You gotta spend money to make money. I'm not killing it, but I'm pushing the ball forward and I'm super proud of where my business is, making doors no longer a choke point was a huge contributor to that.

[Mel Fulks]

I could have been clearer. Using the small cutters with less tha 10,000 rpm might work on some woods. With real hard woods what can happen is the cuts look look fine,but a little too much wood is left and they can't be clamped enough to close the gap.

[jack duren]

I think it was maybe 2005 we figured for every employee they should turn $100,000. 13 employees at 1.3 mil...Some will turn less others more..This was at Regency Cabinet Co. Bates City. Mo

Of the 13, three were owners, one owner made counter tops, one sales and one answered the phone and ordered There were two full time installers and one hardware guy. The rest were in the shop...Two 24 foot box trucks.

We did 10 sets a week and 7 of the 10 sets payed all bills and the last three were pure profit...

[Martin Wasner]

I think those are still pretty accurate numbers Jack, even today. I work the hours of one and a half people and then some.

My last real job was at a shop with 50 guys. Five houses a day on average, the record when I was there was 9. I heard we did 25.7m the one year. I don't know if that accurate or not though. That place was a machine at cranking out custom residential cabinets.

[Darcy Warner]

Martin- you need a p22 weinig for running s4s material. Great little moulders for what they are. I have had a couple and regret selling them.

[Martin Wasner]

Martin- you need a p22 weinig for running s4s material. Great little moulders for what they are. I have had a couple and regret selling them.

Been looking for a Weinig quattromat. Nice small footprint. Feed rate is a little pokey though

[Darcy Warner]

Been looking for a Weinig quattromat. Nice small footprint. Feed rate is a little pokey though

P22 is nice machine. Little older, but very good machines. One with a universal head turns a small footprint machine into something really capable.

Honestly, 50 to 60 fpm is plenty for 2 guys to run.

My Hydromat will run 250 ft/min, be all I can do to keep the deck loaded and someone stacking at 140 ft/min.

To push high speeds you need jointed heads.

[Martin Wasner]

I think that quattromat runs at 26 ft/min. Enough to keep one guy hopping, but not fast enough to justify someone else tailing it.

[andy photenas]

Wow ! what a great bunch yall are! thanks for all the input. the numbers you guys are saying are so much more then i make now...... im alone in my shop and self taught so i have a lot ot learn but 100k is like 5x the value of what i am using now (i have 5 shaper tables most are small this is so i dont need to do setup on most jobs i use mortis and tenon faceframes so one bit for each of those cuts and then 3 for doors)! i cant see any way to get that kind machine in my shop.
ppl keep talking about a cope backer for the profile side but i cant understand why you would do that on purpose ever? i always do all copes first then all profile cuts so the profile cut takes off the blow out from the cope. I always oversize all the width of my stocks but that is because i need to run most things at least 2-4 times to get acceptable profile cuts the way im doing it now.