Shaper cutters solid vs insert

[andy photenas]

So thanks to help from the form I am looking into the best rail and stile bits to use in my 1 1/2 hp shapers ? I also have a 3 hp shaper but only 1. I may buy a 2nd if its a big step up for making doors

Name brands are welcome and do you guys think its better to invest in solid non adjustable cutter heads or the types that u attach blades to the cutter head as needed ?

[Martin Wasner]

Until you step up the shapers I'd just get brazed tooling.

I run insert heads from Dimension In Tooling. Insert heads have a substantially higher entry fee, but they're cheaper to run in the long term. I used to have the inserts sharpened, but now I don't even bother. Once dull I just pitch them. I can usually get about 400 doors out of a set of knives, so the cost per door is not much.

I use four separate shapers for doors.

An SCMi T130N for sticking and sizing, I use an outboard fence with digital read outs that I put together using 80/20 parts. I stack the sticking head on top of a four wing opposite shear insert cutter, so I just dial in the spindle height to go from sticking to sizing.

A pair of Powermatic Model 27 shapers for coping. (Left & right) I use Reliable Copecrafter clamps on these.

A SAC TS125 for panel raising. It uses a four wing insert head.


Those Powermatic shapers are overworked swinging 5" heads. They also spin too fast at 7K rpm. They'd be better at 6K.

[andy photenas]

What is the idea behind a left and right cope machines ? I do cope cuts first and not sure how a left and right machine would help?

[Martin Wasner]

What is the idea behind a left and right cope machines ? I do cope cuts first and not sure how a left and right machine would help?

I do my sticking cut in full length rips, and cut to length. Then you just need a square backer when coping profiles. (shaker style doesn't matter since it's square, you can run both ends on the same machine) You don't have to worry about small parts going through the sticking cut and wiggling around either, or jigging it up so the feeder will pull it through. Most things that's not a problem, but I get squeamish putting anything much less than 6" through a shaper.

I've done it where you cope first then stick. I don't think you get any better quality For me it's really tough for one person to keep the machine cutting constantly, and the operation doesn't justify having someone tail it. Ideally you want parts back to back and there's essentially zero empty cutter time. An empty but running machine is just costing you money, not making it. If you're not cutting wood up, or putting it back together, you're not making money. You want to limit that unproductive time as much as possible.

The downside to left and right copes is you have to buy another head. Figure $600 per profile if you don't like changing knives every time you need a different profile. Plus you should always have at least one set of knives on hand. If you have three profiles you typically run, it doesn't take long monkeying around changing knives to pay for those extra heads. Some dedicated coping machines will stack up profiles so the change over time is negligible. One shop I worked at had a wall of shapers for coping. The theory there is multiple people can cope parts at once. When you pump out a couple hundred doors a day, it's a necessity to have multiple stations and no downtime for change overs.

[Mel Fulks]

There are two types of work being discussed at once, high production dedicated machines and custom cabinet -millwork shops that make doors only for the more particular customers. Mine has only been the latter. For running the real short pieces ,they are lined up face down against a straight piece of wood. Then a long piece of plywood is stapled on with the
uncoated staples . Yes ,the feeder height has to be adjusted up to stick them. I think the main line between the two types of work is the quality of panel grain matches ,that is what brings most comments from buyers.

[J.R. Rutter]

For running the real short pieces ,they are lined up face down against a straight piece of wood. Then a long piece of plywood is stapled on with the
uncoated staples . Yes ,the feeder height has to be adjusted up to stick them.

I just use 2" packing tape to hold shorties end to end, and place it so that it wraps over the outside edge slightly. I may have gotten this idea from you at some point, Mel.

[Mel Fulks]

Well thanks ,J.R. But your idea is better ;no need to move the feeder up! You have unrolled a clear cohesive and adhesive method that
eliminates a sticking ...sticking point, and is clearly packaged in graciousness.

[J.R. Rutter]

Hahaaa!

[Martin Wasner]

There are two types of work being discussed at once, high production dedicated machines and custom cabinet -millwork shops that make doors only for the more particular customers. Mine has only been the latter.

Alright Mel, you've successfully troll'd me. Please expand. I work for some pretty picky people and on some houses that I will never, ever, be able to afford.

Good pun(s) by the way.

There's no reason not to approach building things in the small shop in a similar fashion to the larger companies in my mind. Space is usually the biggest issue for the small shop owner, and it does take a while to get there. I've moved twice, and am in my third space. I've been in business for thirteen years, so it doesn't happen overnight. Especially when the housing market decides to tank a few years after you set out. It's always a tricky scenario, or a case of the chicken and the egg. You need the work to pay for the tooling, but you need the tools to do the work and actually make it worthwhile. Cabinets are super easy to build and really boring. Building a business is challenging and extremely fulfilling. There is so much I thought I knew when it came to making doors from an equipment standpoint a few years ago that was just wrong. Sure, it worked, but it was a struggle and time consuming. All it takes is that right customer, the right timing, and the right couple of jobs to fall in line and you can take those earnings and invest them in yourself or your business to make it happen easier, faster, and with better results. Then the next one is easier. Then you hit that moment again where you've got a pile of cash on hand because you've been busting your hump, then you do it again, and things are that much better again, but even more so than the last time. For me it's a drug. "Holy crap, that took us X amount of time before, now it's almost twice as fast and it does it better because of the new widget." Then you scratch your head and wonder why you didn't do it earlier. I've enjoyed building my business far more than anything I've ever built out of wood, and I love seeing other people succeed.

For me it all started when I replaced my old widebelt with the new one. An ah ha moment. The new one is almost four times as fast, (as far as on machine time goes), and the secondary operations are WAY easier since it leaves a far superior scratch from the old machine. I figure I saved $7k in labor that first year it was running, and that wasn't that many hours. I only put 50 hours on it in the first year, multiply that times 5 so you include the savings on secondary sanding and that's 250 hours. Multiply it again by 1.75 because most things require two people to keep the machine fed and unloaded and you get 438 hours. Now multiply that times $25/hr for an employee cost and you've got almost $11,000. Doesn't take long and a $40k sander is putting that $11,000 either into your pocket annually, or into the next item to make you more productive. And sure, there's no free lunch. The space the machine occupies costs money, electricity isn't free, and a dust collector burns piles of cash as well.


Andy, I don't know where you are, but if you were in the area I'd say swing by, and we can build a couple of doors and you can see what can be done. And like I said, I'm not even close to doing it ideally yet.

[Mel Fulks]

Yo Martin, I'm not saying high quality can't come out of big shops. Indeed they always have the option of "After you glue up those panels make sure the best ones go in the Grouser job!" My point was that ,IMO the only niche for small shops ,when comes to cabinets, is the high end. I do think that some of the cabinet designers are so bad that they never do a job with out sourced doors without making a faulty door list....so you have to make a door or two even when you buy them somewhere else.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

So thanks to help from the form I am looking into the best rail and stile bits to use in my 1 1/2 hp shapers ? I also have a 3 hp shaper but only 1. I may buy a 2nd if its a big step up for making doors

Name brands are welcome and do you guys think its better to invest in solid non adjustable cutter heads or the types that u attach blades to the cutter head as needed ?

Having used many many heads over the past 20+ years I've run our family business, and ten more previous to that... here is my opinion. A well made, name brand brazed carbide set of door cutters can certainly be used to produce excellent doors. Poorly matched import cutters are a waste of $ IMO... but I was tempted once to try some and bought about 4 sets. Junk.

since 2010, I've gone to carbide insert style exclusively. I have had excellent luck with sets from Byrd, once from Dimar and a few from the Canadian tooling manufacturer, Royce/Ayr. I've paid over $2K for one set of cutters but decent ones like the one set I have from Dimar are much less.

The finish on the Byrd heads (not the carbide cutters, I mean the steel heads themselves) are not as nice but we make enough doors to know what works and what doesn't, and I think they are decent quality.

I dont one think I'd invest any more $ into brazed tooling any more. insert is very convenient and I believe the grade of carbide to be better. You can also get one set of heads and several style inserts which will fit those heads, which in the long run can save a lot of $$.

[andy photenas]

i live in new hampshire and man some of you guys are so nice i cant get over it! where do you live around?

[andy photenas]

hmm on the Dimar site it only shows router bits when u click on cutters maybe they dont make them anymore ill keep looking any good links would be great if anyone happens to have any handy.
I seem to remember hearing the carbide is better on the inserts because you dont need to heat it to attach it but i dont know the truth of this tbh.
is it possible to get into a decent set for $500 ?

[jack forsberg]

Yo Martin, I'm not saying high quality can't come out of big shops. Indeed they always have the option of "After you glue up those panels make sure the best ones go in the Grouser job!" My point was that ,IMO the only niche for small shops ,when comes to cabinets, is the high end. I do think that some of the cabinet designers are so bad that they never do a job with out sourced doors without making a faulty door list....so you have to make a door or two even when you buy them somewhere else.

I like Mel am after short runs of good quality. With average machines . no need to run after the stock

[Andrew J. Coholic]

hmm on the Dimar site it only shows router bits when u click on cutters maybe they dont make them anymore ill keep looking any good links would be great if anyone happens to have any handy.
I seem to remember hearing the carbide is better on the inserts because you dont need to heat it to attach it but i dont know the truth of this tbh.
is it possible to get into a decent set for $500 ?

http://www.dimar-canada.com/products.php?m=56&idp=14