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Thread: Shaper cutters solid vs insert

  1. #16
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    Dec 2013
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    I live in NH
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    Thanks Andrew i am checking out there site now, the sold out google search wont come up with it easy go figure.

  2. #17
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    Dec 2013
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    looking at all the tools i noticed one thing. All of the insert heads I find only have 2 blades and the solid sets have 3 blades. Will the 3rd blade make for less back pressure on the cutting process ? and on smaller machines are the inserts really too big as they all have 1 1/4 bore and i have 3/4 only(i know i can use bushings ot make it work)?

  3. #18
    I would look for heads that use a backer instead of a dedicated setup.

    When a customer wants something custom ground for a profile it's much cheaper if you can use a head you've already got, or if something goes out of style it's pretty cheap to shelve a set of knives and backers instead of a complete setup.

    Just a thought.

    I'll reiterate though, it's not going to be awesome until you get a shaper with tight enough tolerances to make use of the better heads. I had a set of Freeborn insert heads for shaker style that I just couldn't get a nice fit on until I dropped them into a better machine, then they were perfect.

    Most of the manufactures build the heads to a zero tolerance. In a perfect world you'd have a rough time assembling doors because everything would be too tight. No machine is THAT perfect, and neither is the material, so that's where they get their wobble to make things fit well. Ideally you have to slip a knife to get the fit you want. Too loose, even though everything is adjusted properly, is a pain in the rear

  4. #19
    Andy ,two cutters actually cut easier. The quality of the inserts makes two cutters enough. There are different opinions on using the bushings; I think it's OK if you keep the cutter at the lowest point on the spindle.

  5. #20
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    I live in NH
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    thanks i have some thinking to do it seems

  6. #21
    Credit and thanks to Martin Wasner for solving a mystery. I've mentioned several times in these door threads that the small carbide door sets must be run at 10,000 rpm; any slower and cope and sticking fits are too tight to pull up. It was always puzzling since both surfaces seemed to look perfect, certainly not bumpy. Everyone who saw that for the first time immediately thought the sharpener was to blame, and that can happen. I'm now convinced that a lack of wobble was the real problem.



    "Most of the manufactures build the heads to a zero tolerance. In a perfect world you'd have a rough time assembling doors because everything would be too tight. No machine is THAT perfect, and neither is the material, so that's where they get their wobble to make things fit well."
    MARTIN WASNER
    Last edited by Mel Fulks; 09-12-2017 at 7:13 PM.

  7. #22
    My carbide guy filled me in on that tidbit.

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Wasner View Post
    I'll reiterate though, it's not going to be awesome until you get a shaper with tight enough tolerances to make use of the better heads. I had a set of Freeborn insert heads for shaker style that I just couldn't get a nice fit on until I dropped them into a better machine, then they were perfect.

    Most of the manufactures build the heads to a zero tolerance. In a perfect world you'd have a rough time assembling doors because everything would be too tight. No machine is THAT perfect, and neither is the material, so that's where they get their wobble to make things fit well. Ideally you have to slip a knife to get the fit you want. Too loose, even though everything is adjusted properly, is a pain in the rear
    This is how I figured out the bearings were going out on one of my shapers. I had been running the Freeborn insert stuff for a while and it always fit perfect. The parts weren't hard to put together, but would slip together with enough friction that you could hold it upside down and they would not fall apart.

    Then I noticed the fit started getting looser and I couldn't figure out what was going on. Replaced the spindle bearings and what do you know, fit was perfect again.

    Freeborn is selling a two piece cope head now on their insert sets with shims to adjust the fit in order to deal with spindle runout. One of the guys from Freeborn's shop told me that they had people complain about door parts not fitting and 99% of the time it was a problem with the customer's shaper, but they got tired of dealing with customers complaining and blaming Freeborn so they just made the fit adjustable.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    Ouray Colorado
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    I think insert multi piece sets are better for most profile - counter profile sets. They will usually cost more than the one piece type. Another advantage is all the cutters are not hitting the material at once. Different hardness and density of material can effect the tightness along with solidity of machine, bearings and vertical accuracy of the shaft in both directions.

  10. #25
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    I know we are getting off topic but bearing issues come up fairly often with shapers and they need to be checked or swapped regularly. Bearings that allow for high speeds tend to be smaller and have lower radial load capability than large slow speed high load bearings. Expensive or old shapers used large high precision bearings with complicated oil drip lubrication systems to allow for both high speed and high load. As machines have gone to shielded smaller bearings lubricated with grease, the bearings are running within their rpm limits but at higher stress due to their load limits. That pretty much insures that bearing replacement will be necessary. Even a heavy shaper like an SCM T130 now runs a 6011 light duty upper bearing vs the double bearing set up 20 years ago. Maintenance is important when running the heavy large heads a shaper is capable of. Dave

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Grant View Post
    The parts weren't hard to put together, but would slip together with enough friction that you could hold it upside down and they would not fall apart.
    That, or just a tiny freckle tighter is what I like to see as well.





    Another thought, don't mix and match brands. Do you due diligence, select a company, then marry them for the long haul. Having everything with the same minor/major diameters, and the same offsets for stick/cope profiles makes change overs stupid easy. Crack the nut, pull the head, slide the other head on, tighten the nut, rock n' roll. Anything more than that just begs for inconsistencies. I used to have a basket case of miscellaneous heads that I bought used. Three (3) different tongue lengths, offsets were all different, and diameters were all different. Change overs took forever. I do jobs that routinely have four different species and three different door styles, which means worst case scenario I potentially have to change gears twelve times if I don't have everything in place to run all of one profile. Which happens. Waiting for approval on something, can't wait but I don't have material for something in the run, sometimes both. Sometimes more. Then when you screw up a door, or make one wrong for whatever reason, it's pretty easy to crank out another one in short order too.


    It was a happy day when the carbide guy dropped these off.


  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Fulks View Post
    Credit and thanks to Martin Wasner for solving a mystery. I've mentioned several times in these door threads that the small carbide door sets must be run at 10,000 rpm; any slower and cope and sticking fits are too tight to pull up. It was always puzzling since both surfaces seemed to look perfect, certainly not bumpy. Everyone who saw that for the first time immediately thought the sharpener was to blame, and that can happen. I'm now convinced that a lack of wobble was the real problem.

    "Most of the manufactures build the heads to a zero tolerance. In a perfect world you'd have a rough time assembling doors because everything would be too tight. No machine is THAT perfect, and neither is the material, so that's where they get their wobble to make things fit well."
    MARTIN WASNER
    You also need enough SFPM of the cutter to make a decent quality cut and minimize kickback. A fellow member here posted a guide a while ago that recommended 10-12k minimum SFPM for carbide cutters and 8-10k minimum for HSS knives on a shaper. A 1 1/2 hp shaper will likely run 1/2" or 3/4" cutters and a 3 hp shaper will typically run 3/4" bore cutters. A 3/4" bore brazed cutter is usually about 3" in diameter and you need to spin it at 10k RPM to hit 8500 SFPM. I would expect that is the biggest reason why you need to run a small brazed cutter at 10k RPM.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Kumm View Post
    I know we are getting off topic but bearing issues come up fairly often with shapers and they need to be checked or swapped regularly. Bearings that allow for high speeds tend to be smaller and have lower radial load capability than large slow speed high load bearings. Expensive or old shapers used large high precision bearings with complicated oil drip lubrication systems to allow for both high speed and high load. As machines have gone to shielded smaller bearings lubricated with grease, the bearings are running within their rpm limits but at higher stress due to their load limits. That pretty much insures that bearing replacement will be necessary. Even a heavy shaper like an SCM T130 now runs a 6011 light duty upper bearing vs the double bearing set up 20 years ago. Maintenance is important when running the heavy large heads a shaper is capable of. Dave
    I will second that one. My shaper is a Whitney No. 134, which has open ABEC7 6311 top and 6309 bottom bearings with an oil wick and slinger lubrication system. I have not seen a new shaper with oil lubrication in a long time but there are still a small number of new units with upper and lower pairs of angular contact bearings made, Grizzly's largest one with the long table being one example (but the only one they sell that way- the rest are all single upper and lower deep groove radial bearings.) However the smaller greased bearings are a lot less expensive, a new set of bearings for my unit is a whopping $2400.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
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    Williamstown,ma
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    996
    I have a 134 waiting for bearings and reassembly.
    With a little looking, the proper bearings for it can be had for $6-800.
    It is time for me to invest in proper insert tooling as well. I have gotten away with Freeborn brazed for the last 20+ years, but the finish is better on the insert type for sure, plus larger diameters helps.

  14. #29
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    Feb 2011
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    Central WI
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    As Peter said, you can source open precision bearings for much less on ebay but you need to spend a few hours learning each manufacturers nomenclature. No standardization there. I'm strictly a hobby guy but have made about 100 passage and cabinet doors and 90% have been with the same Freeborn 8 piece entry door brazed set. I like the large profile and 5/8" tongue and groove. The brazed set is just now getting to need sharpening. If you don't need a million profiles or make a million doors, the Freeborn brazed set with the tongue trimmer is easy to set up and works pretty well. There are sets that are lightly used for sale from other hobbyists and are a good value. I don't like the Freeborn raised panel cutters quite as well as I prefer a little more profile and 7" is a tad small diameter for the 7/16" tongue I use with a 5/8" groove. Dave

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    Ouray Colorado
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    Dave, I had that same Freeborn set for many years. As you say it is not bad and I sent it to Freeborn a few times for sharpening and it maintained a good fit. Freeborn was always my favorite of the braised tooling and still buy that for odd stuff we do. We have gone on to more complex insert tooling for our mainstream tooling and like that a lot but you need to use it to justify the cost.

    To the OP- keep in mind if you run the larger 4 1/2 to 5"" diameter heads on the small shapers they will eat bearings in a hurry. Better to stay with small diameters if you keep those.

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