Spraying table apron white - three options

[Ian Scofield]

Just bought a sprayer (Fuji Q5) and I'm in the process of finishing a dining room table. Top is walnut, bottom is maple which will be painted white.

I've been searching for various threads here internally and the three options that seem to be equally endorsed are:

1. GF Enduro white
2. GF Milk paint white + enduro clear poly
3. SW Kem Aqua Plus

They all seem to provide a white durable finish. Being that I don't have any experience with these, is there an option above that stands out? I'm looking for something that will be forgiving due to this being my first time spraying.

Any information would be most appreciated.

[John TenEyck]

Benjamin Moore Advance sprays like a dream if you have a pressure assisted gun. Of those you listed any would be OK but I would choose them in the same order you listed them.

John

[Rob Young]

Zinser BIN (shellac based) primer is dead white and sprays as well as seals. Overcoat with something durable (GF Enduro Clear Poly perhaps) and you are done.

[Ian Scofield]

Benjamin Moore Advance sprays like a dream if you have a pressure assisted gun. Of those you listed any would be OK but I would choose them in the same order you listed them.

John

I have the gravity fed cup, no pressure pot or bottom feed. Have you had experience with all three? What makes enduro white your first choice? Also, what needle/cap sizes have you had good success with?

Zinser BIN (shellac based) primer is dead white and sprays as well as seals. Overcoat with something durable (GF Enduro Clear Poly perhaps) and you are done.

I definitely plan on using BIN as a primer, but I've read mixed reviews using it as the actual topcoat. Have you had good success with this? Any pics?

[John TenEyck]

W/O a pressure cup/pot you can't spray Advance or the GF Enduro White Poly w/o a lot of thinning, and that's not a good idea. I don't think you can spray GF's Milk Paint with a gravity cup either w/o thinning, but maybe it won't require as much. Of the three products you listed, the only one that is spray ready from the can is the SW Kem Aqua product, so that's the one I'd use. BIN pigmented white shellac primer is easily sprayed w/o thinning, too, and would likely make a fine system if you topcoat it with Clear Poly, as was recommended. That product also sprays well with a gravity cup gun w/o thinning.

John

[Ian Scofield]

Well that's a bummer...didn't think the gravity cup would be so limiting. Even though the PSI in the gun is higher, it won't overcome being gravity fed? even with a larger needle/cap?

John, I just found a thread from 2013 with you spraying GF enduro and you mentioned a "cheap gravity gun" with a 1.8 tip. Did you not have good results with that?

[John TenEyck]

Well that's a bummer...didn't think the gravity cup would be so limiting. Even though the PSI in the gun is higher, it won't overcome being gravity fed? even with a larger needle/cap?

John, I just found a thread from 2013 with you spraying GF enduro and you mentioned a "cheap gravity gun" with a 1.8 tip. Did you not have good results with that?

I'm pretty sure that thread talks about spraying EnduroVar, not Enduro White Poly. Completely different animal. EnduroVar has a Ford #4 viscosity of about 45 seconds; Enduro White Poly is around 100 seconds. You can spray EnduroVar with a 1.8 mm N/N w/o thinning, which is what the gravity feed gun I was using has. To spray Enduro White Poly you would need at least a 2.2 mm N/N, maybe larger and I'd wonder how well it would atomize at that point. This is exactly why I bought a pressure feed gun. I can spray Enduro White Poly with a 1.3 mm N/N with 5 psi on the cup.

John

[Ian Scofield]

Got it. Thanks John for all the information. I'm going to give either the BIN or SW Kem Aqua plus a shot.

[Rob Young]

I have the gravity fed cup, no pressure pot or bottom feed. Have you had experience with all three? What makes enduro white your first choice? Also, what needle/cap sizes have you had good success with?



I definitely plan on using BIN as a primer, but I've read mixed reviews using it as the actual topcoat. Have you had good success with this? Any pics?

It (BIN) is not suitable for a topcoat. Hence the part "Overcoat with something durable".

I'll dig around for some pics but I don't generally use it as a color coat by itself. Mostly as a primer and sealer. I have one utility cabinet on wheels that I did leave white with a clear topcoat. Getting a bit beat up now (not the fault of the topcoat, its because it gets banged around and used!).

Works wonders as a primer coat when switching colors. Re-did a couple of children's chairs for a friend. She got them, they were bright pink, and wanted them blue/green. Wipe down with mineral spirits, tint the primer a light gray (few drops of black TRANS-TINT) and prime. Then it just takes one color coat.


Utility cart before it started to get beat up:
28245383670_864296d3ac_z.jpg

A different chair (can't find the child's chair pics) -- left the BIN white, used to hide grain before topcoat.
raw (strong grain) 32673803221_cae56337eb_z.jpg

primed with BIN 32464770360_6d974c9cb0_z.jpg

[Hugh MacDonald]

I have some questions about spraying General Finishes white poly that are going to hijack the thread a bit, but my issues are related closely enough to the OP’s—in that I’m talking about spraying pigmented waterborne coatings, using a five-stage turbine—that it would probably be redundant to create a completely new thread right on top of this one. I’ve definitely been where he is. In fact, I’m not that far removed.

I'm spraying GF white poly semi-gloss on a project, specifically a door and some millwork and wainscoting. Until now I’d never sprayed a gloss or semi-gloss pigmented coating, and I’m having some real trouble with this GF white poly. This is also the first GeneralFinishes product I’ve used. I primed with BIN shellac primer, which is also being discussed here, and which i really like. I find it very forgiving and easy to spray. You can spray it light or heavy, as needed, it dries quickly, and nothing sands better—that I’ve found, anyway. So if you mess up and spray too heavy or get some orange peel or roughness, it’s no problem to sand back to a good place.It also cleans up quite easily with water and ammonia, which I learned here from John TenEyck.


In any case, I'm spraying with a five-stage turbine through an Accuspray 10 gun (set up with 1.3mm needle/nozzle and #7 air cap, though I also tried a #9 with no significant difference that I could detect) fed by a pressure pot. I've also sprayed it from the bottom-mounted cup. I've thinned it to about 3% and I seem to be getting excellent atomization using both the cup and the pressure pot, judging from spray adjustments done on a test panel. I’m putting down a wet coat of 3-4 mils.


The main problem with this semi-gloss is that it shows up every flaw and imperfection in the surface. That’s an inherent attribute of gloss finishes, but what I’m experiencing is a bit extreme. What I mean specifically is that you can still see the sanding scratches underneath or “in” the coat, not just in a raking light but in any kind of reflected light. Straight on it looks great—smooth and somewhat glassy, but as soon as you change viewing angle you immediately see the scratches. It’s the same on the test pieces—6”-wide pieces of baseboard—that I sprayed before tackling the door. Before the first coat I sanded the primer to 320. It’s not so bad where I could sand with a random orbital, but on the door I have to sand by hand in the corners of the flat panel. I hoped it would improve with subsequent coats, but even the traces from scuff sanding between coats are visible after the second coat. So it would seem inescapable, unless I forgo sanding between coats, but that causes its own problems, as earlier coats are less likely to be dead perfect, so it’s good to knock back any dust nibs, etc., and sanding between coats should also help with adhesion. What could be going on? Has anyone else ever experienced this with spraying gloss finishes, pigmented or otherwise?


As far as recommending waterborne finishes, as you know people here are often going to endorse General Finishes. Until now I’d never used any of their products. I’ve addressed this in a previous thread, but because their coatings are typically two or three times the cost of competitors’ analogous products (from Target to SW Kem Aqua to whoever), I always sort of suspected they were just taking the piss with their pricing. That is, unless their finishes really were as great as the ubiquitous rave reviews would suggest, and if their resins were twice as good, and the finishes twice as easy to spray, and if they looked twice as good. Spraying one product—incorrectly, likely—is perhaps not a representative sample. But I no longer wonder if I’m missing anything.


I’ve only been using them a short time, but I do like the waterborne products from Lenmar Duralaq (owned by Benjamin Moore) and from AcromaPro (formerly Becker Acroma and now owned by the Beast that’s trying to “Paint the World.” The Duralaq finishes spray nicely and seem to create a very durable coating—that’s a subjective appraisal, though. They’re reasonably priced and you can get them anywhere you buy Benjamin Moore products. The AcromaPro waterborne finishes, meanwhile, are just magic. Spray like a dream. Depending on where you’re located they’re potentially a little harder to obtain, as their distributor network isn’t as big, but if you are near a distributor it could be worth trying some. It’s the same story with SW Kem Aqua, though, depending on how your local store operates. I’ve heard people say they can buy it easily from their SW retail location, but Kem Aqua is produced and marketed by their OEM Coatings division, and the retail stores usually don’t even know it exists. I’ve tried the SW Kem Aqua pigmented and clear. A lot of people seem to really like Kem Aqua. I couldn’t get the pigmented topcoat to lay down as well as I’d like, but the clear sprayed very well for me.


For more reading, Painttalk.com is a great resource for learning about different coatings, what people seem to like, methods for applying them, and more.

[John TenEyck]

I've sprayed 3 or 4 gallons of GF's Enduro White Poly; never had any troubles with it, but I've only used the satin sheen. Sanding scratches have never been an issue as long as I prepped the substrate properly, but I've had them when I failed to do that even after 3 coats of BIN primer. Paint shows every defect and prep. work is everything. Between coats I hand sand with 400 or 600 grit to scuff off any nibs or defects. 2 coats usually does it, but occasionally I've had to use 3. I'm using an HVLP conversion gun with a 1.3 mm N/N and 5 psi on my 3M PPS cup.

John

[Hugh MacDonald]

So you're using a compressor-driven system with pressure pot? You mentioned a pressure-assisted gun toward the beginning of the thread, and I wasn't quite sure if you were referring to an air-assisted setup like a Kremlin, or compressor or turbine.

That's the thing, my substrate was prepped pretty meticulously. I typically final sand the primer--that is, right before the first topcoat—with 320, and then scuff sand between coats with 320, and that's usually sufficient. If you get down real low to look across the piece you can see some streak-like lines from sanding, but those appear from just wiping with a cloth. With this semi-gloss I went up to 400 and 600 between coats thinking that might help. I called General about this issue before posting here, and he said they only ever go to 320 and that 400 and 600 were beyond what they use. I assume he's referring to their protocol during their test-spraying of the product. With the 400 and 600 the scratches were finer, but still visible.

When you refer to "failing" to prep the substrate properly, what are some of the things you did, or didn't, do? Not sanding the BIN smooth enough? I wonder if I'm missing an easy but important step. As I mentioned, where I could sand with the random orbital, it was much less an issue, I assume because any scratching is random enough. But you can't always machine-sand, and I'm not going to scuff-sand with a RO sander. But even the scratches from scuff-sanding with the 400 and 600 show up. So it's not like I'm seeing remnants of negligent prep work--I'm seeing the evidence of work done immediately before that coat. Which makes me think I'm not putting down a heavy-enough coat. But it's a nice wet-looking coat that I measure at 3-4 mils, and I'm only thinning 3% or so. I wonder if maybe the product is old. It also seems to take a very long time to firm up.

I've sprayed 3 or 4 gallons of GF's Enduro White Poly; never had any troubles with it, but I've only used the satin sheen. Sanding scratches have never been an issue as long as I prepped the substrate properly, but I've had them when I failed to do that even after 3 coats of BIN primer. Paint shows every defect and prep. work is everything. Between coats I hand sand with 400 or 600 grit to scuff off any nibs or defects. 2 coats usually does it, but occasionally I've had to use 3. I'm using an HVLP conversion gun with a 1.3 mm N/N and 5 psi on my 3M PPS cup.

John

[John TenEyck]

A wet coat that doesn't run is what you want. 3 - 4 mils should be right. If the temp. is greater than 65F and the RH is less than about 60% it should be dry to the touch in 45 minutes max. and ready to scuff sand in 2 hours. If it isn't something is wrong.

I use a Qualspray HVLP conversion gun that has a pressurized cup. Just thought I'd clarify so you're not wondering. That gun makes a world of difference in spraying high viscosity products. You can spray BM Advance w/o thinning, and that stuff is 500 seconds compared to only 100 seconds for the Enduro White Poly. FWIW, BM Advance is my favorite paint for spraying these days; my only complaint being it takes a long time to dry and a really long time to cure. But it lays down better than any other paint I've used.

When I had visible scratches is was because I didn't ROS out all the drum sander scratches before spraying. I guess I got lazy or my eyesight is getting really bad. Anyway, even two coats of BIN didn't fix it, because I could still see it through White Poly. You would think the primer would get rid of them but it didn't, or maybe I didn't sand it aggressively enough. FWIW, I get the best results by ROS only, no hand sanding prior to finishing. I know everyone says to do your final sanding by hand, but I always end up with visible scratches when I do that, especially on anything like a face frame where you have parts butting at 90°. If I just ROS I don't get visible scratches. Between coats I usually use 400 or 600 grit, but I've been know to use 1000 or 1200 grit instead, especially on delicate dyed pieces so I don't cut through into the underlying wood. But with Enduro White Poly I would use 400 or 600 grit, even 320 if needed. I'd also have no problem ROS it if I needed to get rid of orange peel, runs, other defects, etc. The last coat needs a dead smooth surface to go over if you want perfection. If you can see scratches before spraying that last coat they will still be there afterwards.

John

[Hugh MacDonald]

I checked the date on the can, and it's nine months old. It has the "New & Improved" sticker on the lid, which reflects the "improved formula" copy describing the product currently on their Web site. I'm pretty certain I'm getting a full wet coat. It measured at 3-4 mils, and I dial in the gun on a practice board, checking my mil thickness as I adjust. 100 seconds is kind of a lot, especially compared to the viscos of some of the other WB pigmented coatings I've been spraying. 500 seconds is just beyond the range of a turbine setup, I would imagine. I'll check out that Qualspray gun next time I'm on Homestead's site. No doubt you have the ability to spray much heavier finishes. What kind/size of compressor do you use, and do you have an air dryer? I have nothing close to the capacity for spraying in my very perfunctory compressor setup.

I've definitely noticed the same with the ROS vs hand sanding after having sanded. In other words, after I've finished all sanding in preparation for spraying, I can see the hand-sanding scratch pattern in a raking light, whereas from the same view the ROS scratches are, predictably, randomized, enough to have blended together to become invisible. That usually doesn't matter, as they all disappear with applying the finish, but not the case with this GF white poly semi-gloss. I'd obviously ROS it all, but to get into the corners of the flat panel I have to hand sand. The only detail sander I have is the Fein Multimaster, and I tried that. It sort of works some of the time. The oscillating motion it uses is less ideal than an orbital motion, and it didn't get along well with the white poly, which doesn't sand well at all.

With your setup, I suppose sprayability is less of a concern and your benefit might not be as significant, but I really would recommend the AcromaPro WB coatings, even if only to try if they're reasonable enough to obtain. I'm respraying the door--instead of the white poly I'm going to use another white pigmented topcoat and then go over that with a clear semi--and had to re-prime last night. I'd just run out of BIN, and among the samples of Acroma I received is a WB primer. I don't recall the viscosity but it's not thin, and yet it still sprays so nicely. It sands easily--not quite as well as BIN, but still quite well--but it actually seems to lay down better. I was laying it on a bit heavy in places because I was at the end of the can and figured I'd just use it up, and typically if I spray that heavy I'll get really bad orange peel. I did get some orange peel, but it's not bad and the coat feels dead smooth to the touch. Not that that's important because it's a primer coat that I'm going to sand, but it just seems to reinforce that these finishes know how to behave. It was the same with the Aqva Topp pigmented topcoat that I've sprayed a bit. I haven't sprayed a huge variety of things, but that's the nicest, easiest-to-spray and best-looking finish I've ever sprayed. That's one reason I wanted to mention it for the OP.

[John TenEyck]

I have the AM-6008 HVLP SmartPak with the 3M PPS bottom cup. Great all around gun; sprays everything from WB dye to BM Advance with the stock 1.0, 1.3, and 1.5 needles. I have a 60 gal Campbell Hausfeld compressor that puts out about 10 cfm at 90 psi, a little more at 40 psi. I have no air drier, just the stock oil/water separator. I live in the NE. Summers get humid here, but I've never had any problems with water or oil getting into the air at the gun. I do use a cheap inline water/oil filter that screws into the gun inlet. I'm changed it a couple of times but have never really needed to.

I had no trouble scuff sanding the GF White Poly. If it won't sand to powder for you after a few hours, and you applied it under "approved" conditions, then something must be wrong with it. I have used the "new/improved" version, too, and didn't notice anything different from the older version, which is not the case for the new Pre-Cat lacquer. That product is not nearly as nice as the older version; it may be new but what is improved is lost on me. Fortunately, GF hasn't thought it necessary to improve EnduroVar or Enduro Clear Poly yet, and I hope they don't.

Thanks for the info. on the Lenmar and AcromPro products. I had looked at both of them before they were purchased by BM and SW's, respectively, but there were no distributors near me so I never pursued them. I just looked at SW's website and I only see Sayerlack and KemAqua Plus products listed under the US website. The AcromaPro products are listed under the EU website. Are you located outside the US? When I look at Lenmar's website and open the TDS for DuraLaq-WB White it shows it's manufactured by Benjamin Moore but I don't see it listed directly on BM's website. Where do you buy these products.

John