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Thread: Spraying table apron white - three options

  1. #16
    Hmm, maybe there is something wrong with my can. Stranger things have happened. I stir pretty obsessively too. To say it doesn't powder is an understatement; it's very gummy and clogs up the sandpaper rapidly, which made sanding with 600 grit almost futile. That together with it taking a long time to harden is what started me thinking maybe there was an issue. I'm in the Mid-Atlantic, and it's definitely hot and humid here in the summer. But lately it hasn't been too bad: about 75-80° and 70% humidity. It hasn't caused any problems with other finishes I've been spraying, though.

    I know, I've spent a good deal of time at SW's OEM finishes site reading about the Kem Aquas and you'd never even know Acroma existed. I would very much like to try the Sayerlack, as well. I don't completely understand SW's motivation in buying companies like Sayerlack and Acroma, unless it's to give themselves more European presence or just comes down to a ruthless corporate policy of buying and smothering companies to eliminate competition. I wish they would make these brands available at their SW retail locations, which would be extremely convenient. I first read about these brands and others making WB coatings at Woodweb and Painttalk.com, which I've found to be pretty interesting sources for info on finishing from guys who really know their stuff. As you've found, there isn't a lot about AcromaPro online, but they do have their own site (http://www.acromapro.com/home), which has product data sheets and a list of US distributors. I'm not sure where you are in the NE, but there's a Bates Finishing Supply in Littleton, MA. But you'll see all that when you check out the site. There's a place maybe 45 minutes from me that carries Acroma, but I called around to all the "closest" distribs and a Bald Eagle Finishing in central PA was the most helpful and receptive. I offered to buy a can, but they said they'd send me a few samples, and that's what I've been spraying. Price-wise they seem to run a little cheaper than General products, though then there's also shipping. But I have to have General and Target stuff shipped as well.

    I don't remember exactly how I tracked down the Duralaq, but in the end it couldn't be easier. Perhaps wherever I'd read about it the person explained that as a Benjamin Moore brand you can buy it at any BM distributor. I'm in Baltimore, MD, and around me the main BM distributor is a store called Budeke's, a local family-owned business that has been around a long time and is geared more toward the pro painter market but will serve anyone. I had never been to either of their two locations until recently, but the store was really good. Anyway, I just contacted them to get info about the Duralaq and the guy I talked to was extremely helpful and said I could get all the Duralaq coatings at either of their locations. Sometimes it might take a day or two to get stock from the warehouse. Hopefully it would be the same case with your BM supplier. The prices are also very reasonable at $40-45/gallon.

    There are a number of other European brands making WB products that I'm interested in trying, having read positive reviews about them, typically at Woodweb. But just tracking them down can be something of a chore. It took me quite a while to get some Kem Aqua, for example, though that's not European. I'd seen a lot of positive feedback on KA products so I was eager to check it out. As I mentioned I haven't been able to get the pigmented topcoat to spray as I'd like, though I'm going to keep trying. I really like the clear topcoat though.

  2. #17
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    You like Kem Aqua Plus? In what way? The ONLY good thing I have to say about it is it is very clear. Other than that, I found it completely unsatisfactory compared to Enduro Clear Poly. KA Plus is harder to spray, takes forever to cure, and still is not nearly as hard as Clear Poly. It is cheap, I'll give it that.

    John

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by John TenEyck View Post
    You like Kem Aqua Plus? In what way? The ONLY good thing I have to say about it is it is very clear. Other than that, I found it completely unsatisfactory compared to Enduro Clear Poly. KA Plus is harder to spray, takes forever to cure, and still is not nearly as hard as Clear Poly. It is cheap, I'll give it that.

    John
    John, do you find their white to be just as inferior? Or just the clear coat?

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Scofield View Post
    I have the gravity fed cup, no pressure pot or bottom feed. Have you had experience with all three? What makes enduro white your first choice? Also, what needle/cap sizes have you had good success with?



    I definitely plan on using BIN as a primer, but I've read mixed reviews using it as the actual topcoat. Have you had good success with this? Any pics?


    All the fuji Guns are pressurized feed, and will spray wb without excessive thinning.

    I realize the questions were about WB, but have you considered pre cat solvent lacquer? I've been using lenmar ultralaq and have had good results with a fuji 4 stage (once I went to a larger cap)
    Last edited by Jared Sankovich; 09-19-2017 at 5:43 PM.

  5. #20
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    That's a good callout Jared, I overlooked that it's not just a gravity feed.

    John T. with that added detail, do you think the other two are still two thick?

    I haven't looked at pre-cat solvent lacquer mostly because I'm just starting to get into spraying. Trying to stick to WB as I don't have the ventilation setup to do non-WB sprays safely. What size cap did you use with the lenmar ultralaq?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Scofield View Post
    That's a good callout Jared, I overlooked that it's not just a gravity feed.

    John T. with that added detail, do you think the other two are still two thick?

    I haven't looked at pre-cat solvent lacquer mostly because I'm just starting to get into spraying. Trying to stick to WB as I don't have the ventilation setup to do non-WB sprays safely. What size cap did you use with the lenmar ultralaq?
    1.8 with the ultralaq (un-thinned). 1.3 will not flow enough even with excessive thinning to not dry spray (tiger striping). 1.5 will work ok if thinned.

    1.5 with bm advance or gf milk Paint (the gf cottage cheese needs thinned)

    Ultralaq satin clear over Gf milk Paint
    20170914_215336.jpg
    20170917_131731.jpg

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacDonald View Post
    I don't completely understand SW's motivation in buying companies like Sayerlack and Acroma, unless it's to give themselves more European presence or just comes down to a ruthless corporate policy of buying and smothering companies to eliminate competition.
    Slightly off topic but in response to your question about the SW brands (I didn't check to see if there were posts dedicated to Sayerlack). I used the Sayerlack "Hydroplus" AF7140 which is a waterborne catalyzed finish. It worked great with no issues. It is available with a range of sheen levels (05-60) I used the 40. Last time I searched for it on the SW web-site the results returned were "Non sono stati trovati risultati" which I'm assuming means "no records found." But now I can't even figure out where I would have searched for the product. The web-site information architecture is a mess.

    Sayerlack was acquired by Sherwin Williams about 7 years ago, up until about a year and a half ago, the AF72 series clears were brought in from Italy. SW sources the raw materials for the AF72 series, and now manufacture it in the USA. It is KCMA and UL GREENGUARD Gold Certified for low chemical emissions. I sprayed with I believe the same gun John mentioned ... a Qualspray AM-6008 HVLP with pps and likely the 1.3 tip/needle.

    I have never sprayed the GF Enduro white poly but based on this thread I am actually about to order for a project. I'll report back on my experience!
    "the mechanic that would perfect his work must first sharpen his tools.” Confucius

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Scofield View Post
    John, do you find their white to be just as inferior? Or just the clear coat?
    No experience with the Kem Aqua Plus White, Ian, so I can't say. I know at least one poster here really likes it, but my experience with the clear was so poor I haven't been willing to try the white. I just read on another forum that the key with the clear is really thin coats, though they didn't specify if that meant thinner than recommended, so maybe I need to give it another look.

    John

  9. #24
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    Bill, here's what I find on SW's USA website for Sayerlack: http://oem.sherwin-williams.com/prod...wood-finishes/Once the page opens click on the "Water" tab. When you open the data sheets one is the AF55 series, the other AF71.

    John
    Last edited by John TenEyck; 09-20-2017 at 1:57 PM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Scofield View Post
    That's a good callout Jared, I overlooked that it's not just a gravity feed.

    John T. with that added detail, do you think the other two are still two thick?

    I haven't looked at pre-cat solvent lacquer mostly because I'm just starting to get into spraying. Trying to stick to WB as I don't have the ventilation setup to do non-WB sprays safely. What size cap did you use with the lenmar ultralaq?
    I don't know what the cup pressure on a Fuji is, but if it's around 5 psi it should spray the GF White Poly w/o trouble through a 1.3 mm N/N. As Jarred pointed out, the GF Milk Paint likely needs to be thinned for any spray gun.

    John

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by John TenEyck View Post
    I don't know what the cup pressure on a Fuji is, but if it's around 5 psi it should spray the GF White Poly w/o trouble through a 1.3 mm N/N. As Jarred pointed out, the GF Milk Paint likely needs to be thinned for any spray gun.

    John
    The fuji cup runs at turbine pressure, so 5 to 9ish depending on what stage turbine it's connected to.

  12. #27
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    Sorry for the misspelling of your name Jared. OK, that makes sense. My friend has a Fuji and the line to the cup has no separately regulator so it has to be the same as whatever the turbine puts out. And that means it should spray the GF White Poly fine.

    The Qualspray AM-6008 conversion guns have a separate regulator to pressurize the cup. They need to, of course, but this offers an advantage in that you can adjust the pressure lower or higher to fine tune flow to the gun. With BM Advance (at 500 sec. #4 Ford Cup, calculated) I set it at about 7 psi, on Sealcoat shellac I set it at 3 or 4. I'm not sure this is a true advantage over setting it at a constant 5 psi and then turning the needle open more or less, but it's another knob to turn, so ...

    John

  13. #28
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    Perfect. Thanks Jared/John for the additional info. Next step is to find the enduro white here locally...

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Scofield View Post
    Perfect. Thanks Jared/John for the additional info. Next step is to find the enduro white here locally...
    Not likely, Ian. You can buy it from Homestead Finishing, Woodworkers Hardware, and probably others.

    John

  15. #30
    Interesting that searching on the SW site actually rendered Italian-language results... All the Sayerlack Hydroplus info I've ever acquired and read--namely product data sheets and a Hydroplus catalog--was through their "OEM Chemical Coatings" division Web site. The same division that produces or at least markets and distributes the Kem Aqua Plus coatings, as you may already be aware. I became aware of Sayerlack and the SW Kem Aquas at the same time, about a year ago. I've been very interested in trying the Sayerlack since then, but happened to obtain the Kem Aqua samples first and have not gotten around to getting some of the Sayerlack.

    It's been a little while since I was reading about the company and their acquisition by SW, so I don't recall if Sayerlack as a company with employees and production facilities in Italy survived, though you say the Hydroplus is now being manufactured in the US. I don't know if it's true, but some people with considerable experience say that European coating houses make superior waterborne coatings. Like Sayerlack, many of those companies are Italian; here I refer to firms like Renner, Milesi, Ilva, and ICA. I'd like to try those too some day.

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