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Thread: How do you get 3-Phase power to a residential workshop

  1. #31
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    I used a Kay RPC for years and it was fine but the swap to a PP was a real upgrade. Legs are balanced within 2% or less which is way better than an rpc. Virtually no noise other than a little sizzle. A 10 hp PP will start a higher hp motor than a similar sized rpc. Similar to a RPC, you don't want to run the manufactured leg through the controls. A PP is a delta output so the mfg leg measures 208 to ground. Dave

  2. #32
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    Have to check into the 7.5HP motor for the planer. (You guys are killing me...)

    No utility poles to look at (thankfully, considering the issue of hurricanes down here...)

    So you're suggesting one PhasePerfect going to a breaker panel, then normal 220V, 3-Phase outlet wiring to each load.

    Those machines won't have to have different programming for each of them?
    - After I ask a stranger if I can pet their dog and they say yes, I like to respond, "I'll keep that in mind" and walk off
    - It's above my pay grade. Mongo only pawn in game of life.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Kumm View Post
    I used a Kay RPC for years and it was fine but the swap to a PP was a real upgrade. Legs are balanced within 2% or less which is way better than an rpc. Virtually no noise other than a little sizzle. A 10 hp PP will start a higher hp motor than a similar sized rpc. Similar to a RPC, you don't want to run the manufactured leg through the controls. A PP is a delta output so the mfg leg measures 208 to ground. Dave
    Is 208 to ground an issue with the machines?
    - After I ask a stranger if I can pet their dog and they say yes, I like to respond, "I'll keep that in mind" and walk off
    - It's above my pay grade. Mongo only pawn in game of life.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Lightstone View Post
    Is 208 to ground an issue with the machines?
    I'm not sure I follow, so this might be outta left field.

    Depends on the machine. Most 208/230 is fine. Some are picky and require parts. Some require too many parts to change voltage to be cost effective. My panel saw is 208 only and the importer said it's a giant pia to change voltages on. Not just switching taps in the doghouse. The bulk of equipment is just a matter of switching taps on the motor and in the transformer for control power. You may have to adjust any it overloads it has too. Most stuff it's pretty simple because the machine is simple.

    Like Darcy said, it's nice having 480 on the pole. You can do whatever you want at that point.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Kumm View Post
    Similar to a RPC, you don't want to run the manufactured leg through the controls. Dave
    Could you please explain this in more detail? I don't understand what a manufactured leg is, and which controls you are referring to.

    Thanks. I've been learning tons here. Hopefully many others as well.
    - After I ask a stranger if I can pet their dog and they say yes, I like to respond, "I'll keep that in mind" and walk off
    - It's above my pay grade. Mongo only pawn in game of life.

  6. #36
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    Study the wiring diagram of the machines you are running to determine if the control circuit needs to not be on the generated leg of a converted setup. My new dust collector was like this. I standardized my wiring to use the white wire and middle bar and middle leg of tje 3ph breaker in the panel powered by the generated leg so I always know which lead is generated. Most control circuits are wired though l1 or l3 so having generated on 2 is a typical wiring solution. Again you need to understand what you are wiring and what the requirements are.

    I have several makes and models of vfd and also a couple rpcs. 20hp rpc in new shed and 5hp rpc in old. Big PP's are pricey. I am prepped to move tp one someday.

    Dont forget wiring costs in your plans. Check your converters specs for proper wiring.

    I am also a fan of various dif low voltage methods to start your converter.
    Glad its my shop I am responsible for - I only have to make me happy.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Lightstone View Post
    Equipment that I'm looking at includes a Felder A941 Jointer (standard 3-phase, 5.5HP motor), Felder D951 Planer (standard 3-phase, 5.5HP motor), Felder FB710 Bandsaw (3-phase 7.5HP motor), Sawstop ICS (3-Phase 5HP motor - although available as 1-Phase 5HP). Other pieces of equipment are 1-phase.

    I can get some, if not most of that equipment with less powerful 1-phase motors, but why???
    Why not? As a (I presume) hobbyist the single phase will do the job and three phase will in all likelihood make selling the used machines harder and possibly reduce their market value. I used to sell VFD's with Clearvue Cyclones in Australia as that was the only way we could power the motor here so I have seen the advantages and disadvantages of what you propose. I also have had and still own three phase machines for woodworking and for a hobbyist I can't see the advantage for saws, planers etc. If the hobbyist wants to use old antique machines then a VFD is the simple and quick answer but where the machine can be supplied in either form single phase is less complicated and re-sale is easier.

    I get emails weekly form Chinese companies trying to flog me VFD's and I ignore them all. We tried Huanyang initially and then went to Powtran because at the time Huanyang became unavailable and also the fact that factory support from Huanyang did not exist and there was confusing documentation being supplied. Powtran are a way better unit at the lower end of the market and I have field tested hundreds of them with only two failures after many years of service. They also do a mini VFD that is ideal for a drill press if anyone is interested.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  8. #38
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    I got 3-phase directly from the utility company but I was lucky that my shop was only 100 feet or so from the lines carrying it so I didn't have to pay a distance premium. Even though mine was a commercial shop, I still had to submit a "load letter" detailing the equipment with motor sizes I'd be installing -- they had a minimum h.p. requirement for 3-phase hookups.

  9. #39
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    We are moving to a new home on a large lot in a custom home neighborhood. When I called the utility to see how large a service I could get the engineer asked what I would be running in the shop. Told him a large welder, 10 ton heat pump, 10HP compressor, 10HP dust collection, etc, etc. He then looked at the lot drawing and found that I have 3 phase running under my east property line. Net net I will be able to get 400A of utility 3 phase for $3400 to cover the installation of two transformers.

  10. #40
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    Low voltage three phase will either be 208 which has each leg rated at 120v to ground or 240 delta. 240 three phase will be referred to as delta and have two legs measure 120 to ground and the third will measure 208. That is typical and every 220-240v machine will run on 240 delta. The only issue is not to run the 208 manufactured leg to the controls or internal voltage transformer. Most Euro machines run 120 controls and use a transformer internally to convert the many voltages used wordwide to a standard 120 or perhaps 24v. A RPC generates a high voltage leg too. Most high voltage three phase ( 480-600 ) will be Wye rather than delta to have a better ground for the higher voltage. Most of this isn't relevant unless stepping voltage up from 240 to something higher. Most machines rated 208 can handle 240 unless the utility supplies power higher than 240. Then some will buck the voltage down. Remember the voltage to ground isn't all that important. How it balances out between the three legs is. The PP is best at that. Dave

  11. #41
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    Dave, my incoming 3 phase has the wild leg as you describe. We have always kept that leg off the control side and never any issues. Even with CNC machines. We have a couple 480 volt machines on step up transformers and coming out of the transformer all legs measure the same. Not knowing much about electricity I have never understood how this happens and if I should worry about what leg is going to the control side. Again no issues with the machines connected to the transformers.

    For years we ran several 5 to 10 hp 3 phase machines off a home built converter made from a heavy 15hp motor we picked up for almost nothing from a local mine. Had to spin it up with a small motor and belt but once it got to speed it started right up. It was a crude setup but worked for several years and seemed to run all the machines with no loss of power. If I ever get into a retirement shop Phase Perfect will be the way to go.

  12. #42
    It has been so nice over the last year and a half having real 480v Wye pole power. One big transformer for 240v 3phase and one smaller one for my single phase is so much nicer than running a rpc.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by David Kumm View Post
    Low voltage three phase will either be 208 which has each leg rated at 120v to ground or 240 delta. 240 three phase will be referred to as delta and have two legs measure 120 to ground and the third will measure 208. That is typical and every 220-240v machine will run on 240 delta. The only issue is not to run the 208 manufactured leg to the controls or internal voltage transformer. Most Euro machines run 120 controls and use a transformer internally to convert the many voltages used wordwide to a standard 120 or perhaps 24v. A RPC generates a high voltage leg too. Most high voltage three phase ( 480-600 ) will be Wye rather than delta to have a better ground for the higher voltage. Most of this isn't relevant unless stepping voltage up from 240 to something higher. Most machines rated 208 can handle 240 unless the utility supplies power higher than 240. Then some will buck the voltage down. Remember the voltage to ground isn't all that important. How it balances out between the three legs is. The PP is best at that. Dave
    The reason PP has 208 to neutral is because the two single phase legs are not going through refractors. But I really don't understand what the relevance of the two 208 to neutral would be anyway because the machines are wired Delta and the coils would never receive a Y connection with neutral . The problem with rotary phase is the drop of voltage on the wild leg but this is guaranteed to with in 2 percent with phase perfect still though you would never feed from that side . I'd always wondered how this was possible to have 208 to ground until I looked into it . and it must be that phase perfect is only generated one phase . So it's kind a like a glorified single phase leg VFD without variable frequency .

    A VFD would be 240 Leg to leg and 120 ground on all three but then single phase power would never be derived from the three phase out put side anyway to control voltage transformers because the VFD is the controller And single phase is available on the primary side . So I say the VFDs have the upper hand over phase perfect in regards to inductive loads . I also think for the money one can supply himself with far more horsepower money wise and then be on a more reliable system because only a single machine can go down if there is a system failure . The phase perfect is great at stepping up voltage with transformers and are the cats behind in supplying power for welders and lighting but in the 240 volt range I find it hard to stomach the cost of phase perfect to run motors . Just a hobby for me too Dave
    Last edited by Chris Padilla; 09-28-2017 at 5:04 PM.
    jack
    English machines

  14. #44
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    Yes Jack, the PP is generating only one leg. The high leg in 240 delta. Same as when a utility delivers high leg delta three phase. I'm a fan of vfds too but when you have lots of machines ranging from 1/2-25 hp, there is only one unit that can handle all of them well and that is PP. There also doesn't seem to be any issues related to motor insulation of bearing fluting which, although rare, can happen with vfds. Dave

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by David Kumm View Post
    Yes Jack, the PP is generating only one leg. The high leg in 240 delta. Same as when a utility delivers high leg delta three phase. I'm a fan of vfds too but when you have lots of machines ranging from 1/2-25 hp, there is only one unit that can handle all of them well and that is PP. There also doesn't seem to be any issues related to motor insulation of bearing fluting which, although rare, can happen with vfds. Dave
    I'm not convinced at all that there are issues with leaking voltage at 240 V that cause a new bearing failure . Also a 25 horse power machine in a shop running on single phase would be the envy of the neighborhood . I still think I could supply these horsepowers for cheaper than phase perfect and be more reliable . In the last few years I've read of two units that have exploded .
    VFDs will certainly handle inrush current way better and in so doing not dim my neighbors lights . Still for the majority operating from single phase power 15 horse power is really large . I can give you a vfd for that $1000 . Phase perfect will be well over three times that . So for A four head moulder running 15 hp heads total 45 hp I can set you up for four grand . I'd be sitting down for the price on phase perfect. I think up at these range the rotary phase converter still has a place economically . What I will say is phase perfect makes it easier for one to plug in a machine they acquisition . Are you saying that you have a four wire delta coming out of phase perfect and that A and B are tapped at 208 or is it just a 3 wire system with no neutral .
    jack
    English machines

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