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Thread: Cupped pumpkin pine floors

  1. #1

    Cupped pumpkin pine floors

    Hey everyone!

    My husband and I have purchased a beautiful 1780 house and need some assistance. We have completed the major items (all new electric, roof, structural, septic and plumbing) and are now moving on to cosmetics.

    The pumpkin pine floors are gorgeous but areas have heavy damage from the previous owners pets. Just scratches, not waste products thank goodness. The majority of the floor is beautiful and shiny with the classical orange patina. Other areas are down to the bare wood, large areas that can't be hidden.

    Here's the rub. I had the local guy who specializes in these floors out and he said because of the cupping he will have to take "quite a bit" off the floors. The boards are random width but up to 15" wide and a little over 1" thick with cupping up to .5 inches. That's a lot more than I want to take off, as the floors have quite a bit of bounce already and it would take them millimeters away from the T&G.

    I'm willing to live with the cups, They don't really bother me. I'm looking for options to fix the wrecked areas without taking up to a half inch off the entire floor. I understand that a traditional floor sander won't be possible. I'm willing to do it myself by hand or by any other method that will save the majority of the wood. This is where I need suggestions, I'm not sure where to start.

    Thank you so much for reading this extremely long post!! Any tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
    Last edited by Melanie Rys; 09-21-2017 at 8:44 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
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    Williamstown,ma
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    996
    First, it sounds like you need to control the humidity levels. One in the house, and a bigger one in the basement will go a long way towards remedying this.
    After that, you could sand out the areas with a small but agressive sander like the Festool Rotex 150 on the agressive setting. You will need/want it hooked to their vac, this will ensure virtually dust free working inside the house.
    I regularly use mine when patching in a floor, or adding a small area in an existing house.
    It works very well, and the people are amazed they don't have to dust the whole house, or rewash all the dishes.
    I can't recommend this system enough for exactly your needs and wants.
    I have even sanded entire floors when laying hardwood in small bedrooms etc.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Holliston ,Ma
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    10
    One of the biggest mistakes is to put a conventional floor sander on one of these floors. Its asking for trouble. The cupping in the floors is, I believe, due to the natural condition of the wood during the humid summer months. I do agree that dehumidifying the area under the flooring goes along way to control the cupping. I have wide oak floors and can tell the humidity level by the gap in the seams. Having said that, the winter dry air should help the situation.
    There is no practical reason to try and flatten the floor through sanding in this case and I would venture a guess that the cupping will reappear the following humid season.
    Best practice is to scrape the surface to new wood and refinish, although not many are interested in doing this anymore. Second would be sanding as directed above with a sander that will remove the finish but not re-contour the floor. You may find, depending on the age of the finish, that the disks will fill rapidly, usually indicating a varnish finish. The urethane finishes can be quite problematic. I find, a well sharpened scraper does a good job of getting the finish off the wood without sacrificing its thickness. I f a floor finisher is recommending a floor sander on these floors I would pass.
    Agree or disagree with the above, but I would not recommend a floor sanding machine on those floors. JMO

  4. #4
    Thank you both so much. So you think the floors will cup less once we are dry?

    We tore out the slab in the basement and are pouring a new one with proper underlayment as soon as the under slab plumbing is inspected (next week). This and finishing the pointing of the exterior will drop humidity levels in the basement a ton I hope. If the floors go back to flat-ish that would be great.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Holliston ,Ma
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    Those improvements will certainly help with the moisture issue. I would add a plastic layer over the dirt that is going to be concreted. The concrete will take longer to set up but the plastic will inhibit the moisture from coming through the floor. Depending on the size of your basement, you might need two dehumidifiers to accomplish a real moisture control situation. Because mortar is not waterproof, each joint in the stone foundation will allow moisture intrusion. In effect you'll be drying the area outside the house also. You may also experience more cupping in the floors when you pour the concrete, as it will add a serious amount of moisture to the house while the concrete sets up.
    It's getting later in the year now and the humidity levels will begin to drop, causing a drop in the moisture content of the wood in your home. The floors should start to dry, and reach their equilibrium moisture content ( that level where the wood and the surrounding atmosphere are the same)consistent with the surrounding atmosphere, and the cupping should start to diminish. It hard to say how much, but in mid winter around here in Massachusetts you might hit a moisture content of 8% maybe a little lower depending on your heating system (forced hot air is drier unless equipped with a humidifier), at this point I think you'll see how much of the cupping is eliminated.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
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    beavercreek oh
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    To keep moisture levels down in the basement make sure your gutters have good drainage sloping away from the house. It's a good idea to extend the gutter drainage tube at ground level at least 4 to 5 feet away from the house also.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    WNY
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    I would add to those who said to essentially do nothing until the basement moisture is well controlled. You won't really know the natural shape of the floor boards until you establish equilibrium relative humidity in both the basement and upstairs. You don't just want to lower the RH in the basement; you want it to be the same as upstairs, within reason of course. Put RH gauges upstairs and down, and try to get it within 10%. The actual value is not nearly as important as both being the same. After you accomplish that, it will likely take weeks/months for the floors to come to their equilibrium with that. Then you can determine what actions to take with the floor.

    John

  8. #8
    Join Date
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    Wouldn't sanding remove the pumpkin pine patina as I believe it happens on the surface and not throughout the entire thickness of the wood?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
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    SE PA - Central Bucks County
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    To preserve the majority of the patina, the damaged areas will have to be fixed by hand...Trust me, you do NOT want to sand the life out of those floors. The previous owner of our property did that and my foot went through a board a few years ago, prompting me to have to completely replace that room's floor with new white pine that I then had to hand finish to more or less match the rest of the wide-pine in our home.

    For the repair finish work on our floors, I used my Festool Rotex 150 and Festool 150/3 sanders to do what's necessary...down on hands and knees.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  10. #10
    I'm a floor guy too. I'm in pa where I'm constantly doing old pumpkin pine. (Which if anyone is wondering) is actually a gorgeous old white pine that takes on awesome color. Black, red, brown, even some silver sometimes.
    When I encounter these floors, which was last week for me. I always use a 10" belt machine. Basically all your doing is flattening what wants to be flat and allowing the concave areas to keep the old finish. Just keep right going like a standard restoration. After your final sand. Whatever is left, you get a good scraper and file and handscrape all the remaining content. Lastly you hit those areas w 80-120 grit paper and buff the whole floor off using a square buff. Do not use a rotary buffer. It will tear the floor apart. Use a square buff. Any questions PM me.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas L Carpenter View Post
    Wouldn't sanding remove the pumpkin pine patina as I believe it happens on the surface and not throughout the entire thickness of the wood?
    Yes, but huge areas of the floor in high traffic areas are already missing the patina and down to the bare wood unfortunately thanks to the previous owner's big dogs with long claws. 😣

  12. #12
    If the floors do not stop cupping, would it be possible to remove the cupped boards, rip them and replace. This takes cupping out of boards so one can use for
    furniture..why not floors?
    Be the kind of woman that when your feet hit the ground each morning, the devil says, "oh crap she's up!"


    Tolerance is giving every other human being every right that you claim for yourself.

    "What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts are gone, men would die from great loneliness of spirit. For whatever happens to the beasts will happen to man. All things are connected. " Chief Seattle Duwamish Tribe

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    Seattle, WA
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    Melanie,

    Before doing anything, I recommend testing the hypothesis that basement moisture is causing the cupping by putting relative humidity meters in your house and in the basement as recommended above. If significantly different, then I think everybody is on to something with the moisture issues.

    If not, then the cause could also be that the flooring wasn't dry and acclimated when installed... so it dried faster on the top (exposed) surface than the bottom surface, causing the cupping... and it has been cupped like this for nearly the entire time they've been in the house. And with boards that wide, I would guess that many of them include the pith (the center of the growth rings). In my experience, pine boards cut with the pith in them almost always cup... period. And while wood does expand and contract, keep your expectations reasonable. Some boards cup and stay cupped forever (especially those with the pith).

    If your experiment does conclude that you have significantly more humidity in the basement, then I would recommend looking for signs of moisture intrusion. The plastic under the new slab is a great idea, but since you already have the old slab removed, now would be an awesome time to put in a french drain along the foundation footer, leading to a sump pit and sump pump. No idea of that is necessary in your area or on your property, but it might be worth considering since it's not a much additional work or cost at this phase and would be a nightmare to add after pouring the new slab (trust me!).

    Good luck!

  14. #14
    Not a long term solution but try treating the bare areas with shellac, which will even out the sheen. The advantage is shellac adheres to almost anything plus it can impart different color tones (blonde shellac, orange shellac, etc). Our last house (circa 1915) had oak floors with the finish worn off in the doorway from the kitchen. A quick coat of shellac topped with paste floor wax and it blended right in. Touched it up periodically and never considered refinishing the the rest of the first floor.
    Last edited by Lloyd McKinlay; 09-22-2017 at 8:17 PM.

  15. #15
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michelle Rich View Post
    If the floors do not stop cupping, would it be possible to remove the cupped boards, rip them and replace. This takes cupping out of boards so one can use for
    furniture..why not floors?
    Simple answer...the primary visual attribute of these floors is "wide pine". Ripping them would completely destroy that. Wide pine floors, common in this area of SE PA, date back to the 1700s sometimes...
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

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