pocket holes to glue or not to glue?

[Martin Wasner]

If this is true, then there is something wrong with your glue. I have tried to take glued/pocket-holed face frames apart (that I built incorrectly) in hopes of being able to reuse some of the pieces, and the joint will almost never break cleanly. It is certainly not as strong as a long grain glue joint, but in my experience the end grain will usually have some of the long grain attached to it.

I would not send a cabinet out the door without gluing the pocket hole joints.

Exactly my experience.

[J.R. Rutter]

Ditto for me as well: When breaking apart a frame, the long grain fails in every joint (after screws are backed out). No clean breaks.

A secondary benefit to gluing is that it seals the end grain so that stain doesn't make a darker line at the joint. It also makes a more seamless looking joint under lacquer.

I only use the minimum amount of screws per joint. One for joints less than 2" wide, two for joints wider than that. Add a K-body for a few minutes to pull it up tight if needed. Double apply glue so that it doesn't all wick away.

[Martin Wasner]

I only use the minimum amount of screws per joint. One for joints less than 2" wide, two for joints wider than that. Add a K-body for a few minutes to pull it up tight if needed. Double apply glue so that it doesn't all wick away.

From 1½" up to 4½" we do two screws, from 4½" up we do three screws. In the rare occasion we have a 10" rail it'll get a fourth screw

We don't clamp after assembly, and only one application of glue.

[Bill Berklich]

Lots of opinions on this. Your application will dictate your strength requirements. A pocket-holed face frame, pocket holed to the carcass is pretty well supported for its function. Higher end kitchen and bath will dictate higher end woodcraft.

For glued butt joints . . .

Attachment 368454

Properly clamps the show faces should always be flush or close enough that just a touch will take care of them. If things are ending up skewed I would check:
- Are the parts milled true?
- Is the surface or clamp pad being clamped to large and flat enough to bring the joint into plane?
- Is there adequate clamp pressure to avoid parts shifting?

Looking like I should junk my biscuit joiner :-(

[andy photenas]

ok so for all of you (and it seems like most people) that do use pocket holes and glue combo, How do you handle the mess the glue makes after every joint on the clamp plate that lines up the face ?
When I do this i get glue all over the face and as mentioned I do not have a wide belt sander or a drum that can handle this large of an item so i end up palm sanding it down.

I did not mention how i make the mortise but it is very fast i cope all ends with a tongue then i run the mortise pieces through a spiral bit on a shaper and clean up on hollow mortise I have one machine that i leave the bits in for each of those cuts so i dont need any setup.

[Jim Becker]

Once you have the piece clamped, glued and screwed, you remove the clamp and then can wipe off any excess glue with a damp cloth or paper towel. With pocket screw joinery, you don't usually leave things clamped beyond the basic assembly...the screw acts as a clamp.

[Martin Wasner]

Once you have the piece clamped, glued and screwed, you remove the clamp and then can wipe off any excess glue with a damp cloth or paper towel. With pocket screw joinery, you don't usually leave things clamped beyond the basic assembly...the screw acts as a clamp.

I don't clamp the joint at all, I pull it tight with the screws. There's a clamp involved, but it's just there to hold the face tight to the table.


Andy, I'd honestly look for a 37" single head widebelt before going after making doors faster. You'll pick up more time doing that than anything else. It'll cost a lot less too, and I think the return will be greater because virtually everything goes through it.

I don't miss those early days, good on you for getting after it.

[Kevin Jenness]

Don't use so much glue. But do use glue- it will minimize creep and hairline cracks in the finish at the joints.

I used to look down on pocket screwed face frames, but after using them for 15 years I am convinced that they are quite adequate when glued and fastened to a box. If I only had a manual Kreg jig I would use spline tenons instead, but I use a manual Castle machine- it takes a couple of seconds to cut the pocket and pilot hole, the lower angle reduces joint shift, and the clamps come off immediately so there is faster turnover and less moving and lifting of clamps ( particularly nice on long and complex frames). Likewise, I use pocket screws to secure face frames to boxes where they won't show- again, far fewer clamps and faster throughput. I don't do much casework anymore, but my pocket hole machine remains quite useful for all sorts of quick, strong (enough) butt joints.

If you can make m&t joints as quickly, or can persuade your clients of the upcharge, good on you.

To each his own method. I have access to a wide belt, but don't run assembled face frames through. The linear stock gets sanded to 150, assembled flush and finish sanded- no cross-grain scratches to eliminate.

[Jim Becker]

I don't clamp the joint at all, I pull it tight with the screws. There's a clamp involved, but it's just there to hold the face tight to the table.

That's the clamp I'm referring to...for some folks, it's a table based clamping system that holds things flat. For others...me, for example...it's the standard Kreg "vice grip" type clamp that overlays the joint to keep things "face flush" while you use the screws to pull things tightly together. I just hang the joint off the edge of the bench and do one joint at a time. I don't do enough work to justify a table based clamping setup...yet. That could change, of course. And a lot of hobbyists just have the simple clamp.

[Martin Wasner]

no cross-grain scratches to eliminate.

I know full well I'm in the minority on this, but I like cross grain. It's easier to sand I think than a scratch that is with the grain. It's just easy to see, whereas when it is with the grain, it's tough to see, but still needs to be sanded out. The main reason is spike loads, secondary is to keep the belts cool, but I kick every thing I can through the sander at an angle and it gives me a scratch that's super easy to see. You still need to sand through the final grit of the widebelt, why not make it easier to do is my theory.

I use pocket screws a lot. Toe kicks into decks. Edging onto wrapped wood tops. Anywhere I don't want to fart around with a bar clamp and they aren't exposed. It's a handy machine.

[Martin Wasner]

That's the clamp I'm referring to...for some folks, it's a table based clamping system that holds things flat. For others...me, for example...it's the standard Kreg "vice grip" type clamp that overlays the joint to keep things "face flush" while you use the screws to pull things tightly together. I just hang the joint off the edge of the bench and do one joint at a time. I don't do enough work to justify a table based clamping setup...yet. That could change, of course. And a lot of hobbyists just have the simple clamp.

I used to use a sheet of melamine, and just clamped them down to that, at the edge. Made me real good at starting at the middle, and working my way out. I don't miss that procedure though. An actual clamp easel or table is money well spent, if you have the space, and if you're doing this for a living.

[Jim Becker]

I used to use a sheet of melamine, and just clamped them down to that, at the edge. Made me real good at starting at the middle, and working my way out. I don't miss that procedure though. An actual clamp easel or table is money well spent, if you have the space, and if you're doing this for a living.

Oh, I agree, and if I started to do commission work with more frequent building of face frames and the like, I'd build a specialized surface to help speed up the assembly.

[Rick Alexander]

I recently inherited a Newton from my dad. I always liked kreg screws for face frames rather than trying to assemble using the double dowels from that Newton because the glueups can get hairy but just playing with it the other day after getting it installed in my shop reminded me just how strong and nice looking that machine made butt joints. Absolutely perfect. I wonder if the Newton will come back in vogue some day. The reason we didn't sell it was because it just didn't seem to be worth much second hand. I'm going to try to adjust to it and give it a try for a couple of projects.

[Warren Lake]

Ive seen resale for a grand, think there is one for about 750 canadian right now, new ones I think were about 5k.

[Justin Ludwig]

ok so for all of you (and it seems like most people) that do use pocket holes and glue combo, How do you handle the mess the glue makes after every joint on the clamp plate that lines up the face ?
When I do this i get glue all over the face and as mentioned I do not have a wide belt sander or a drum that can handle this large of an item so i end up palm sanding it down.

I did not mention how i make the mortise but it is very fast i cope all ends with a tongue then i run the mortise pieces through a spiral bit on a shaper and clean up on hollow mortise I have one machine that i leave the bits in for each of those cuts so i dont need any setup.

practice gluing. I use a glue bit bottle that I've notched a V in the tip. I apply the glue to the end grain of rail or midstile and stay 1/8 to 1/4" from edge. Smooth with finger, butt, clamp, screw, sand. On the rare occasion I get squeeze out on the sides of the joint, I let it dry then use a sharp chisel to pop it off.
It took my helper a long time to figure it out, but he's a slow learner.

If if you don't have an industrial faceframe table, buy one, used. Until then, buy a sheet of 3/4 melamine and make a clamp table with a 4" lip all the way around it. I used that method for 4 years until I found my Ritter FF table for 2k.