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Thread: Another HF with SDD & Wynn 35A question! how much WC change should I see?

  1. #1
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    Another HF with SDD & Wynn 35A question! how much WC change should I see?

    I have gutted a HF DC with the Stock separator ring and the stock impeller with a Wynn 35A2740 nano filter sitting on top of the Ring, the Supper Dust Deputy (SDD) is connected directly to a modified 6 inch intake on the blower ( I made a new blower cover out of 3/4 mdf and used a flanged 6 inch HVAC take off that fits directly into the suction side of the SDD)
    I am using 5 inch ducting for machine connections.
    the Filter is new I have not used it for saw dust collection, only testing.

    IMG_0087.jpg

    As you can see the blower exhaust directly into the stock HF ring no leaks in the system checked using a smudge stick.

    The question what kind of WC change should I see from static (blower not running) compared to running.
    things to note.
    I made a manometer based on based DIY Tyler's for Testing a clean filter vs clogged.
    I want to make a base line measurement to assess changes I make in ducting such as bends and use of flex ducting.
    Currently in the configuration I have the manometer connected to top of the Wynn filter it will measure the decay of the filter efficacy with a rise in WC as the pressure inside of the filter increases thus pushing the water colum higher. This only measures how well the air is being exhausted through the filter.

    What at I am looking for is a base line as stated before. I want to know how well the D.C. System is performing as it is connected to ducting and changes that are made with ducting.

    Can a manometer be a good tool for this purpose and if so how and where should I connect the tubing for this measurement? I would think so 43 years ago I had a set mercury sticks to balance the carburetors on a Triumph Motorcycle. I would like others input!

    How ever I do not have a pitot tube to compute CFM.
    I am not really trying to derive CFM from the the tools at hand. The real test in the end is does it do the job I want it too? Remove the dust! And the fine dust. Although I would like to know.
    i have seen Fan curves for this HF unit, however with the changes I doubt they mean anything.

    some data collected!

    I am at And Altitude off 1900 MSL (mean sea level) West Texas.
    stock HF impeller
    120 volts
    blower running current measurement with a clamp on Amprobe.
    condition: 11.5 amps with no filter or suction hose only the SDD connected
    yea 2 HP yea right!!!! I am not going to try to guess what this motor is developing because I do not know what the real efficiency rating is. That being said it ain't 2 HP.
    When the Wynn filter is connected and the dust bag on the bottom no suction hose on SDD 11.15 amps
    this is telling me the lower amp draw is because the airflow is restricted by the exhaust through the filter.
    (unrestricted no filter the current draw is higher 11.5 amps)

    The Manometer home made 3/8 tubing with 3/8x 1/2 barbed nylon fitting sealed and tapped into a 11/4 inch pvc cap sealed to the top of the Wynn filter, 1/4 vent hole to cap with 1/4 hole sealed to connect to the filter no leaks.

    WC displacement: with the system connected (5 inch ducting no reducers) I am seeing only a negligible rise in WC maybe a 64 of an inch. I guess this good.

    any advice would be appreciated.

    oh I did place a bag over the Wynn filter and sealed it airtight and observed a 3 1/4 displacement on each side of the tube for a total of 6.5 WC what are your thoughts on this performance? After all it is a HF blower.


    Thanks Folks.
    Lane



    image.jpg
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lane Hardy View Post
    ... I want to know how well the D.C. System is performing as it is connected to ducting and changes that are made with ducting. ...
    With the tools you have a good way to get that information is measuring motor current. You already have the 11.15A reading for unrestricted input. Call that 100% flow. Cover the input and make another current measurement. That will represent 0% flow. Now when you connect ducting and a machine port you can use the motor current measurement to interpolate a relative flow value.

    When I measured the fan curve on my HF blower I recorded the current readings along with CFM and now I can easily estimate CFM by simply making a current measurement.
    HF DC Motor Current.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane Hardy View Post
    ...yea 2 HP yea right!!!! I am not going to try to guess what this motor is developing because I do not know what the real efficiency rating is. That being said it ain't 2 HP. ...
    Correct. The fan is way too small to pull 2HP from the motor. A 12" fan could do it but the 10" fan pulls more like 1.2HP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lane Hardy View Post
    ...oh I did place a bag over the Wynn filter and sealed it airtight and observed a 3 1/4 displacement on each side of the tube for a total of 6.5 WC what are your thoughts on this performance? After all it is a HF blower.
    That seems low, mine measures 7.5". The altitude difference (I'm at 670') isn't enough to account for that much pressure difference.
    Last edited by David L Morse; 09-28-2017 at 7:36 AM.
    Beranek's Law:

    It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion.
    L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.

  3. #3
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    Your clean filter WC measurement sounds about right based on what I see on a ClearVue system. A clean filter barely moves the needle on a 0-3" gauge. I would recommend a pitot if you want accurate airflow measurements. Dyer makes a range and their phone application makes the conversion of WC into CFM easy

  4. #4
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    Lane,

    The only reference I have ever seen for the HF DCs is the old review shown here: http://www.portercable.com/uploads/P...Collectors.pdf

    Since you only have a 10" impeller it can't develop very much SP as shown on the chart on page 67 (HF=Central Machinery). The only way I can see getting the number you want is to put your unit back to stock condition and measure with your equipment to match the chart in the review. Since that is not probably too enticing, David's suggestions is a great alternative.

    Hope that helps. Let us know what you do.

    Carl

  5. #5
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    The review Carl Kona references is very good and presents the performance curves for a number of 1.5 - 2.0 hp dust collectors. Another good way to estimate your cfm is to use the homemade manometer to get static pressure and then use the curve to get cfm

  6. #6
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    Update on HF DC with SDD & Wynn 35A filter.
    using information from Redoak49's post I connected my DIY manometer to the input of my intake 5 inch pipe, I am pulling 1 1/2 inches of WC on each side of the manometer for total of 3 inches that equals 600 CFM based on the Chart that redoak49 posted.
    i can't complain considering it is HF blower with the stock fan and the Density Altitude is 2441 feet.
    a 12 fan would make the performance even better.

    Thank you all for your input on my posting.


    Lane

  7. #7
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    Lane,

    I think you are close but it looks like you are comparing apples to oranges with the Redoak chart. That original chart is shown in the link I provided above. If you look at that chart it shows the HF machine maxed out at 536CFM @ 4.25" SP (bottom right of the chart). That is the stock machine. Any number below 4.25" is extrapolated. You are testing a system with a different (better filter) and a SDD cyclone added (usually ~35% drop in CFM). So you really can't use the Redoak chart when comparing your system. There is one data point close to yours in that is in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaTrY-O7l5E&t=2s
    He has the same setup that you have but vents directly outside. You could remove your filter and measure your SP to get a relative CFM number (his is 632CFM without a filter). The downside is he uses a handheld meter and looked for a maximum reading and only took one reading, which would be exaggerated. There should have been multiple readings at the inside and edge of the test pipe and averaged. I know from my own experience that the handheld meter can peak out 20-30% higher than an average of multiple readings. So although it is a data point it is likely on the high side and without a filter. There is another guy who did the 12"upgrade and added the SDD XL and I believe only read ~700CFM on his handheld (look for him on youtube)

    Hope this helps. Let us know what else you find out.

    Carl

  8. #8
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    Hi Carl,

    Thank you for the feedback, however I need to add a few things that are different from the stock HF DC
    that will explain the performance I am getting. I did mention stock HF D.C. But I should have stated stock impeller.
    the changes that I made that are different from the Youtube link you posted is he is using a five inch pipe connected to the five inch port on the D.C. I made a new 6 inch hole in a new MDF fan cover and used a 6 inch HVAC takeoff that fits directly into the SDD. I get more airflow this way, in addition I do not have the 5 inch flex hose connecting the exhaust to the separator ring. The Fan curve that redoak49 posted was for a stock HF DC an the changes I have made would invalidate the results I agree, I would think that the changes I have made would be towards the plus side over HF fan curve.

    Lane

    IMG_0087.jpg

  9. #9
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    I am really uncertain about the curve being not valid. The curve is determined by the impeller, the housing and the motor. If you change the filter, add at dust deputy or similar, you are really only changing the static pressure of the system and not the characteristic of the fan and motor. Does having a dirty filter versus a clean filter change the fan curve? No, it only changes the static pressure of the system. Perhaps, the curve does not extend far enough or to low enough static pressure but the general shape stays the same.

    If you change the impeller, yes the fan curve will change. But all the other changes will not change the curve. You can only get so much of the small HF impeller. Another point to make is that running a dust collector with out a filter and much larger intake will lower the static pressure giving you higher CFM but you must be a bit cautious as you may be getting too many amps on the motor.

  10. #10
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    Hi Larry,

    Would changing the intake from 5 inches to 6 inches change the fan curve? I think it would. I maybe wrong.
    I have a digital amprobe and with this configuration I am only pulling 10.5 amps. With my 5 inch metal ducting an two blast gates.
    Correction in my original post I said the dust bag was on the bottom I should have said the plastic dust bag on the bottom with the Wynn 35 A on the top.

  11. #11
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    Changing the intake probably does not change the curve. It will lower the static pressure and move you on the curve and you get higher cfm.

    If I have 6" mains on my dust collector but connect a 4" hose to it, I do not change the curve. I do increase static pressure and lower the cfm.

    The fan curve is pretty much defined by the impeller and motor characteristics.

    I tested my dust collector with everything from an 8" pipe to a 2.5" hose and many conditions in between. They all fit on one smooth curve of cfm versus static pressure. I would not run my dust collector with the filter off due to concerns of damaging the motor.

  12. #12
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    Larry - you are correct in that the curve is the curve from the blower. What is done after that is where you land on the curve. The fact that the Redoak curve tried to recreate the curve from the article and in doing so created data points below 4.25", which is an extrapolation. I guess things were not adding up for me. Changed bag to Canister filter +10-20% CFM, add Cyclone -30-40%, add higher sea level -~10% and yet the result is improved performance?

    Lane you are correct. Increasing the input port does increase CFM by about 10%, but only on the lower SP end of the curve. The improvement will evaporate as you increase SP.

    You will not improve/gain SP by changing the input size, that can only be done by increasing the impeller diameter or the housing configuration.

    At this point I think we are splitting hairs about data from an almost 10 year old review, a home made manometer and probably a less than 10 year old HF DC, which may perform differently. Without testing his manometer on his stock system and compare numbers, the chart to me doesn't mean much.

    The bottom line, Lane everything you did improved performance overall. The SDD may have hit the CFM but improved it in the long run by having a cleaner filter.

    Way to go. Let us know what else you do!

    Carl

  13. #13
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    Thanks guys for the input! I am learning! From what I am understanding I am comparing a 12 volt rechargeable dust buster to a wind tunnel at NASA Langley! My anemic HF blower is the DustBuster. I need a bigger fan. Seriously if I had to do it over I would have bought a 5 HP 2 stage machine. But the the SDD was a gift and I had the HF dust distribution system another gift. My only outlay of cash has been the Wynn Filter $208.00 delivered. And several dollars on fittings.
    and time! That is free these days.
    i appreciate everyone's input, and Welome the knowledge that others have to offer.
    I hope this discussion will help other woodworkers in decinding what route to Persu on the dusty road of chip collection.

    Thanks guys,

    Lane

  14. #14
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    Thank you Carl and Larry for your input and taking the time to share your thoughts.

    Lane

  15. #15
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    Carl --
    I just checked about your comment that I extrapolated the curve. I did not and reproduced it just as it was in the Wood Magazine Article which shows the curve down to about 2.25" I am uncertain where you got the idea that I extrapolated or created data.

    Here is the curve from the article. The HF curve is the lower one in the graph.

    Wood Mag HF Curve.jpg

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