Anyone use Industrial CNC Pro units?

[Davey Keane]

Hey folks! First post, long time follower of the Creek. Our business is looking to get a 4x8' CNC to cut full sheets of 3/4" plywood, MDF, and 1/16" aluminum, mostly for signage, picture frames, etc. This will be our first full size cnc, and we are kind of in a rush to get it. It'll be cutting for a good 5-6 hours a day, and would like to cut the plywood/MDF in 1 pass, or maybe 2 with a cleanup pass if needed.

Ive received quotes for companies such as ShopSabre, Laguna, and also the other end of the spectrum like CNC Router Parts. Today I had a chat with IndustrialCNC.com and am intrigued. They quoted me a significant discount for their Pro unit including a vacuum table, but the sale ends tomorrow which has me raising an eyebrow. But in comparison with all the other companies ive talked to, their price is the most affordable. And the unit is in stock and can ship immediately. I cannot find much info about them online, and only one thread here on the Creek from several years ago, which again has me raising an eyebrow.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this company and machine? Durability? Spindle? Efficiency?

Thanks in advance!

[Robert Bonenfant]

Hey Davey,

I wanted to chime in on this because we bought our first laguna router about 9 months ago and now we have two smartshop 2 ATC fully paid for. Dont rush into a huge like this decision, when you buy a new machine you loss a ton of value the first year (Well over 30%) so theirs not much options for a do over. Laguna took about three weeks to assemble the machine and another week for a tec to set it up, They had it delivery and running in a month.

First thing i dont like with what you stated, is the high pressure sales tactic - Sale ends tomorrow, any large Tools dealer will issue you a quote good for atleast 30 days. Telling you the sales ends tomorrow is a joke and I would walk away right then, nothing on there facebook or the internet about a fire sale for amazing prices. Second is they offer no information on there website as far as the spindle or power of the spindle, they state 700 IPM cutting speed ? This requires some power and a accurate machine, they state a water cooled spindle I doubt they can get close to 700 IPM with that. Im not sure what model you are looking at but on most of there machines its showing the control unit is directly on the machine and doesn't have a separate control unit. You also state you want to one pass 3/4" MDF and Plywood, you need some serious power to do this. We can one pass MDF with a 1/2" Compression bit and we have a 12Hp Spindle, I know from my pass experiences smaller spindles will have alot of trouble with this and leave poor results. The max laguna tells us we can go on a Smart shop 2 is 600 ipm and we have hit that mark on pass jobs

Vacuum Pump - We found this has been one of the most import parts of the machining process. What type are they including with your purchase ?? It says the setup runs on 220 Power and this really limits the amount of vacuum you can create for a low power cost. Our setup included a 10hp regenerative vacuum pump, this was enough to hold down large cabinet parts. We work with parts as small as 6" so we had to spend $9000 on the right vacuum so we could even begin to work (This is why rushing is not the way to go)

I would start by getting samples from each company and go from there - Im not downing Industrial machines but there website information doesn't add up for what they are stating there machine can do. I have never seen one in action either but it sounds like they employee used car salesmen for there sale staff. If you need us to make a quick video of our machine feel free to message me. Like I said we went down this same road about 9 months ago and wish we would have planned it out a little better but it all worked out great in the end.

Good Luck
Robert

[Davey Keane]

Hey Robert!

Thank you for your thoughts! I actually spoke with Laguna last night, and they are now quoting 8-12 weeks until shipping on a new unit. ShopSabre was also 8-12 weeks. I guess these are good problems to have if you are a manufacturer, but not me as the customer!

I did email Industrial last night for specs on the spindle and vacuum table. Like you say, I am just very apprehensive of this pricing tactic. And we just came out of a bad experience with a smaller CNC unit where it was great on price, but not effective for what we were trying to do. That should be a reminder for myself!

We've been on this search for a good two months. I am just looking for quality, reliability, and longevity. We are a smaller shop and younger business, so finances are quite tight, so committing to a $30k purchase is a bit daunting!

So I assume that since you've already bought a second, you would recommend Laguna? For the first few months of using whatever machine we will get, 90% of the use will be for cutting 3/4" ply and MDF. The parts cutting out will range in size from 6"x6" to 4x4', so there is a wide variety, big and small.

Congrats on the success!

[David Falkner]

Davey, have you looked over at CNC Zone on their Commercial CNC Wood Routers subforum? There's a ton of info over there and if you can get Gerry (ger21) to chime in you'll get some straight shooting info you can use (Robert's info above is good, too).

David

[Robert Bonenfant]

Yes I would recommend Laguna personally but there are several others companies that users on these forums have had success with. Check out Shopbot as well, I had a used one before and it worked well for the price.

Being a newer business make sure you keep an eye on Ebay and craiglist (Might think im crazy lol) We found our second machine on ebay and the price was too good to pass on, bought it outside of ebay and had it delivered in four days. The company we bought it from, ran into some bad luck and there idea didnt pan out, we saved $13,000 off retail and the machine was only a year older than our first new machine.

[Davey Keane]

So I ended up getting back in touch with Laguna today and got some pricing without a tool changer which puts it in more of the affordable range for where we were wanting to spend. For our specific processes, a tool changer is more of a luxury item rather than necessity. Lead time is better as well.

We've been in biz for about 3.5 years, and all of our equipment has been either used or refurbished (1 cnc and 4 lasers). Now we are at the point where we want to start to swap out that equipment with new machines. Not sure if anyone can relate or not, but it seems like we have spent more time tweaking and fixing aging equipment than having them run like they should. All the downtime is starting to add up which is why we just want to move towards new. And yes, I understand a new machine will have it's own issues, but it should be a vast improvement over what we've had.

David, I have heard of CNCZone, but havent been on there in quite some time. Ill check that out as well. Thank you!

[Bruce Page]

Also take a look at Camaster.
American made quality.

[Brad Shipton]

Robert, I am curious if you have had to fix anything or order repair parts? Did they help with the setup and getting you started? I never considered Laguna because of the terrible track record I have read over the years with conventional woodwork machines. I have had some complaints about my machine, and have been quite abrasive to my tech support on a few occasions, but they are still respectful and continue to help. Product support is important.

The Camheads forum is a very good resource for helpful tips for this purchase. They have a section there for used machines too you might want to look at. Gary has some very good articles that are stickies I suggest you read. 2 months is not very long. I would not rush this. I did, and I should have doubled my budget once more from my very first one. This is an industry where there is absolutely no question you get what you pay for.

I am not sure the tool changer is optional based on the number of different materials you have listed. I too thought one just buys a few cutters and goes to work. Undoubtedly you will end up using upcut, downcut, compression cutters, ball nose cutters, cutters meant for aluminum, and who knows what else. If you have the infrastructure to produce enough gcode to work the machine 5 - 6hrs per day as you mentioned an ATC will pay for itself in very little time. Keep in mind adding an ATC later involves buying a new spindle. I believe mine costs $7k.

I do not believe the specs on the industrial CNC site. The accuracy mentioned requires a great deal of attention to very minute details. It is hard for companies to spend that much time at the costs they quote. I have a quote for a full fledged industrial machine to replace my current machine from one of the big boys and even they do not quote an accuracy as low as industrial CNC lists. The sales tactic is also complete crap.

Technical specs are wonderful numbers all provide. How some derive them can be questionable and you will not find that out until its too late. One would think they have tested sample machines for days cutting different materials, but that is not the case for all at the entry level. Some avoid this problem by being a bit vague. You will see a lot of talk of resolution and repeat ability by some. This is not the same as accuracy. What I have learned is the build process is what can have the most dramatic impact on the machine performance. Unless a company uses very poor electronics and puts it together very sloppy with poor quality wiring, that part of the equation is quite predictable even with machines that use steppers. I did not go look at any of the machines at the factories before buying and that was a mistake. Looking back now I am not sure I would have known what to look for, but maybe it would have sparked a few questions.

I don't know how much aluminum you plan to cut, but if it is a lot you might want a coolant at some point. If so, an MDF table will be a problem with some coolants.

Does $30k include a vacuum? I was trying to figure out which Laguna machine you were looking at to see its specs. As Robert mentions that part could be important if you are working with small parts.

[Davey Keane]

Hey Brad! Such great information here from everyone, I very much appreciate it.

We are no longer considering IndustrialCNC. Too many unknowns, and there was no follow-up further making me question these sales tactics like several of you have mentioned.

The difference between the Laguna ATC and regular unit is about 14k. However, this is not an apples to apples comparison. The ATC was for a 5x10 Smartshop M with 5.5hp spindle, and regular unit is for a 4x8' Swift with 3.5hp spindle. Both units include vacuum table. According to the sales rep, we should be able to do the 3/4 ply and MDF in two passes with no issues (i didnt get a ipm number). He said cutting 12"x12" rectangles with the ply should take about 15 minutes in the two passes with the Swift 3.5hp spindle.

This is what we have forecasted using the machine for through the first quarter of next year...

55% cutting 3/4" plywood into squares, rectangles, and various shapes. Will use a keyhole bit, and most likely compression bit to cut.
35% cutting MDF into various shapes, and moulding strips with 45* edges to make picture frames. Will use a cutting bit (not sure which), and most likely a roundover bit
7% cutting aluminum sheets probably around .045 thick used for signage
3% cutting acrylic sheets into smaller squares/rectangles for picture frame "glass".

We aren't really cutting on-demand items or one off items per say, which is why we think we can batch a lot of our items in the day as a lot of it goes into inventory (which moves relatively quick). So for instance if we need to cut 10 4x8 sheets of squares and rectangles, we would go through and do all the keyholes first on each sheet. Then switch the bit, and do all the cuts for each sheet. The Laguna rep said it should take us 90-120 seconds (if that) for a bit change once we are familiar with the machine. So we figured that it would be faster to swap a sheet, than switch a bit and re-Z each time.

Regarding the ATC, this is what we calculated out. If it saved us 12 minutes a day in not having a tool change, that's an hour a week. At $30 an hour, id need 467 weeks or almost 9 years to recoup that 14k. That's why we deemed it more of a luxury item. On the other hand to this argument, the main operator of the CNC wont be at the machine 24/7 so when its cutting, he has other responsibilities. So when a sheet or job gets done, he may not be at the machine, so it very well could stay idle until he gets back to start the next job.

All of this is assumption until we actually do it. Which is why this forum has been very valuable to us as we havent went down this road before. Quite honestly, we have no idea, its all a guess at this point. But compared to our first machine, whether we have an ATC or regular unit, it will be an invaluable improvement.

[Gary Campbell]

Davey...
I think that your logic on ROI with an ATC is flawed. As someone that cut sheetgoods commercially (for other shops) starting out on a single tool (with drill) and then progressing on to an ATC machine (same size, same brand) and did log time study numbers the difference in overall production is much greater than you state. I would suggest to you that based on your multiple tool files above that the lesser HP single tool machine will be able to process 1.5 to 2.75 sheets per hour with "required" operator action of 2 minutes out of every six or greater. The ATC will be able to process 3.5 to 5.5 sheets of the same material per hour using 1.-2 minutes of operator involvement every 10.

These numbers have a range. That range is determined by environmental conditions in your control. Efficiency of vac hold down, infeed/outfeed system, dust collection, etc. and experience all figure in to an hourly cycle time. The ATC scenario allows the operator to accomplish other tasks, single tool not so much.

Prior to purchase most customers fixate on the "time to change a tool" in their calculations. FYI: That actual time in seconds would be the least of my concern. The "per sheet" cycle time, sheets per hour or per day that can be processed is what determines payback rate. IF, and I do mean IF, you have 30+ hours of work for the machine a 4 by 8 single tool machine should easily pay for itself in 3.5 to 5 years. A higher priced ATC in 1 1/2 to 2 1/2. The inverse of your logic.

As it relates to cabinet components cut, labeled, edgebanded and stacked: Single tool machine= 12-15 sheets cut per day with around 10 banded. ATC= 35-45 sheets per day with over 30 banded. Personal best: 52 sheets cut, 50 banded in 9 hrs and 10 minutes. That is the real difference. CNC machines print $20 bills, ATC machines print $100's

[Mark Bolton]

My main input based on your spec's is not to go with a 5 or 5.5hp spindle if you are really wanting to cut 3/4" material of any kind single pass. We single pass 3/4" material at fairly high feed rates regularly and a 10hp spindle would be the minimum in my opinion. A tool changer is a no brainer. Get the maximum positions your machine will allow unless you are doing very focused work.

When we were shopping our decisions were boiled down greatly by our own personal business model. We are asking our customers to support locally made products that incorporate locally sourced materials wherever possible. We received quotes from Laguna and others that were very attractively priced however to hold our own feet to the same fire we are asking our customers to hold theirs to, we went with a domestic manufacturer. It was just something we felt we had to do and couldnt be happier.

I have a Laguna machine in my shop (not a cnc) that we had an absolute horror show with that drug on for a very long time but I have to honestly say that Laguna (even though it took a long time) made it MORE than right and at the time their customer service was spot on for us. We were shipped numerous replacement parts at no cost trying to rectify the problem and then in the end they sent a complete machine replacement (this was a 9' slider) at no cost, offered us a small machine of our choice for our troubles, and even supported the replacement machine with a couple of small issues. So for us personally, again, the time span was in sane, but they made it beyond right. That said, our local/domestic issue put them out of the running. And to be honest, they seem to be killing it in the CNC world but my fear of having a hundred grand in financing held over my head and the machine to have any issue whatsoever would be a complete disaster.

[Davey Keane]

Thanks guys. Bear with me on this post as im looking for some advice as this is going to dive a little deeper than just the CNC. I understand both of your points about the ATC. I would love to get it if we can, and I know that over time, its in our best interest to go that route.

But like Mark, I feel like we are handicapped by our own business model right now as well. A real quick background on our business - My wife and I started about three years ago selling personalized picture frames and home decor products on a few online marketplaces using a single laser engraver. Started it as a part-time gig just to make some extra money so she could stay home with the kids. We are both 31, and she is due with our 4th baby any day now. That'll be four kids aged 5 and younger. We like to say we enjoy a full plate! Hopefully this is the last kid, but thats a whole other conversation.

We do not have any outside "customers". We manufacture/produce our own products, then sell them in various online marketplaces selling direct to consumer. So I don't have any sales staff, partnerships, guaranteed PO's, or ways to generate good business quickly. We've had to do very little marketing because the online marketplaces really do it for us. We've just had a unique product line and its sold well relatively speaking.

Each year we've had very controlled growth, not taking on more than we can handle, growing by about 25-30% each year when everything is said and done. And that's an area where im struggling with this. We are going to incur cost and take on debt, but I am not going to start to see a return from an increase sales for a few months until our products are moving through the marketplaces. We've always done everything on a cash basis, never wanting to take on any debt. But for this purchase we will be taking out a line of credit as we have some pretty good terms.

My million dollar question is this...

With this being our first full size CNC, how do I justify the an extra 14k of cost as our first machine? Short term cost vs long term gain? I know that its petty cash to some people, but we are on an extremely tight budget. Like razor thin. We just moved into our first warehouse space of 5000 sq ft from being an at home business. Our expenses have basically doubled on top of the upfront cash that was needed for the lease/security deposit, and getting things up and running. Plus we just had Hurricane Irma and our business was literally shut down for over two weeks.

So on one hand, I know that as a business, we can be offering a ton more than what we are presently doing just making home decor items. Ive been quite frustrated by that actually, that we are moving way slower than id like. When we do get the CNC, I want to bring on outside customers. We now have a great staff of four full time people on top of my wife and I, which are ready to design/build new projects. But we are struggling on this marketing end. Almost like we've hit a peak for the niche that we are in with some of the marketplaces, and now are in need distribution or partnerships. And like mentioned, we are struggling with finances through December when we hit our busy month for Christmas.

I very much feel the weights of both of these two things as im responsible for both the paychecks for my employees, and my family. But also the vision of the company and where we are going. Again, we started this as a little side gig, so there was never this goal/vision. Now we have blown past that, and I feel stuck to be honest. I just dont have that clear picture as to where to go from here, as my previous businesses have always been small endeavors. It's like scaling is breaking everything. So i'm looking to pick the brain of some seasoned vets that have been in this business for a long time as to thoughts/suggestions.

Thanks again to everyone who has responded thus far, its been a valuable resource for me!

[Robert Bonenfant]

Davey,

From your last post it sounds like you might need more guidance for the next step you want to take. I would sit down with your wife and maybe employees and brain storm the idea of buying a new Cnc router. Its a big step and it sounds like with the mention of the ATC it got even bigger. They are great money makers but it takes times to generate a profit - It took us about a month before we really started to use our first machine and had the setup perfect. A ATC is well worth the extra money and it opens you up to a wider verity of production items. Like Gary stated the time savings is alot more than a few minutes.

Retail Items : If I read your post correctly you make home decor and custom products correct ?? Both E commerce / retail goods - Christmas is almost here and its coming fast. In the retail world this is when the real money starts flying in the door. The reason i bring this up is because having worked for my families business for years in retail - January and Part of February is hell for Retailers and small businesses selling direct to consumer goods. If cash flow is tight during Christmas it will be even tighter in January and February. Im sure if you have been doing this for a few year you know this but with more Overhead (Employees, Warehouse, Bills) it really gets compounded during this time.

Ill try to add more info later on - Really Busy Day

[Davey Keane]

Hey Robert, the CNC has been a topic of discussion for quite some time among our meetings. I've actually kind of drug my feet on it since we had a small unit that was running and still turning out product (slow of course). The two main guys who will operate the CNC outside of myself are actually desperate for it to make their areas much more efficient.

We sell all e-commerce, no retail. Because a vast majority of our items are personalized, there are no returns unless we make a mistake. We've optimized our processes so much that our error rates are less than 1% across our entire product line, so we don't really have to deal with returns or errored items too much. As you mentioned, this is the time when xmas sales are starting. November and December should be great months for us to get on our feet.

[Gary Campbell]

Davey...
I know where you are coming from. Last week I spent a day with a small ecommerce (only) signmaker. He has a good product, a good marketing plan, has been in business for a while and like you, needs to increase production from his existing small machine. His signs are nice, but require 3 to 6 bit changes. His cycle time over 3 days averaged out to 21 minutes per sign, ~3 per hour, with 20 to 25 per day produced. Required operator input was over 50% of that time. The problem is that it was a minute or two, every minute or two. Not enough time in between toolchanges to accomplish much.

With a more efficient machining process; better hold down, fixed multiple placement locations and ATC the process goes as follows: 3 blanks on the machine at one time and proper tools in the ATC rack cycle time on each sign is just over 7 minutes, 7-8 per hour, 50 to 60 per day. Operator input is 3 minutes every 20 minutes, allowing the operator to actually accomplish productive tasks between blank swaps. There is still room for improvement in feedrate optimization.

Here is a short video showing a similar process to his: https://youtu.be/fHCgR5K0uoM

Lets say he makes $10 profit per sign. the increase in profit is $300-$400 per day, $1500 =-$2000 per week, $6500 to $8600 per month. Need I go on? BTW, he believes his net is almost double the $10 example I used above.