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Thread: Preparing stock for CNC - make or purchase edge glued panels?

  1. #1
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    Sep 2017
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    Preparing stock for CNC - make or purchase edge glued panels?

    I am a hobbyist turning commercial and will be setting up a small shop with a 4x8 shop bot. I am in a position to penetrate the high end market, where I hope to generate most of my business. Leveraging my own designs in software and the power of the CNC, I plan to use live edge slabs, furniture grade sheet goods and edge glued panels to make furniture (and some art).

    I have good sources for slabs and plywood. My challenge is with panels. I can make them, but especially with no jointer and only a 13" planer, they are time consuming and a pain. It's also not where I'd like to focus my energy. I'd rather be designing, running the CNC, marketing and networking instead of jointing and planing rough lumber.

    I started investigating buying panels but haven't found anyone local, which means shipping costs and the risk of not being able to "know" the quality in advance. Here's an example: I can get a 3/4" finished thickness 48"x96" solid walnut panel for $700-$800 delivered to the shop. If I make it myself (not including additional equipment investment), it's around $250 in lumber and supplies and my time, which would be valued at around $500 in this comparison.

    $500 is real money. But my time and energy are worth something too, especially when I could use the reclaimed time to market and sell. Also, I expect that at my price points, I can still make money buying panels. Just less per panel, but hopefully I could sell more with more time....

    Sooooo....what do you think? Am I crazy to consider buying panels? Other ideas? Suck it up and buy a jointer and make a lot of dust? Try both ways?

    Also, someone in another forum suggested I could joint and plane rough lumber on the CNC. I get it in theory, but is it really practical to make panels with only a CNC, glue and clamps in terms of time and energy?

    Thanks so much!
    Brian
    Last edited by BrianD King; 09-29-2017 at 4:04 PM.

  2. #2
    Given your equipment and preferences I see no reason why you can't find a reliable subcontractor to supply glued up panels, especially in a metropolitan area like Milwaukee. It can take some time to qualify a vendor, but if you are specific about the quality required and willing to pay a reasonable cost you be able to develop a relationship with a reliable shop. Ask your current suppliers' salesmen (lumber, sheet goods, hardware) for recommendations, and try posting the job opportunities and classified exchanges on woodweb.com. Forget about milling standard lumber on your cnc- that's fine for big slabs that can't be handled on normal machinery, but too slow for general work.

  3. #3
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    It's not crazy to buy the first couple of panels. If your volume goes up, you might be able to negotiate a lower price.

    It does seem a bit odd that you own a 4x8 shopbot, but no jointer and only a small planer. If you plan on making furniture, then you will need a few more basic tools.

    We don't know the details of what you are making, but you could start with the top side rough if you are going to carve the entire surface anyway. Not sure what the back side needs to look like.

    Steve

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Peterson View Post
    It's not crazy to buy the first couple of panels. If your volume goes up, you might be able to negotiate a lower price.

    It does seem a bit odd that you own a 4x8 shopbot, but no jointer and only a small planer. If you plan on making furniture, then you will need a few more basic tools.

    We don't know the details of what you are making, but you could start with the top side rough if you are going to carve the entire surface anyway. Not sure what the back side needs to look like.

    Steve
    The shopbot is on order. I'm just starting my own business, so I'm tooling up and trying to make some decisions. I've learned to buy slowly and as needed.

    Part of my plan with the shopbot involves high quality sheet goods. No need for jointer/planer there. The other part involves live edge slab work -- specifically surface planing and rabbeting. Still no need for jointer/planer. So it's only the panel work that would require a nice jointer and larger planer.

    And that's my dilemma. Invest in those tools (easily $4-$5k) or save time but spend more along the way subbing out the panel work.

  5. #5
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    You didn't actually say but it appears you have some unique ideas in mind that you would like to capitalize on. That might work in the beginning but if you are successful, better equipped competitors will eat you alive on cost. You need to be prepared to do whatever it takes, not just the pieces you want to do. There are thousands of extremely talented CNC router operators out there. I started as a woodworker and took on a CNC machine only 3 years ago. Although I am retired and mainly do this work to support my hobby and get a little spending money, I believe I have a little bit of a competitive advantage with the stuff I make because I already knew how to make and finish wooden things.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art Mann View Post
    You didn't actually say but it appears you have some unique ideas in mind that you would like to capitalize on. That might work in the beginning but if you are successful, better equipped competitors will eat you alive on cost. You need to be prepared to do whatever it takes, not just the pieces you want to do. There are thousands of extremely talented CNC router operators out there. I started as a woodworker and took on a CNC machine only 3 years ago. Although I am retired and mainly do this work to support my hobby and get a little spending money, I believe I have a little bit of a competitive advantage with the stuff I make because I already knew how to make and finish wooden things.
    I appreciate the words of caution. I do have some ideas, and I hope they are unique!

    I don't expect to compete with the talented CNC operators or the large production facilities. But I do expect to compete on design; and if I hit on something particularly compelling, I will seek a design patent (more likely) or a utility patent (less likely) to afford some level of protection from the big guys. It's also worth mentioning that the creative process motivates me far more than money. Fortunately for me and my family, my wife has a good, steady job, and I had 17 productive years in the workplace before starting this venture.

    While I am not a novice woodworker, I have tons to learn and have never done this professionally. I am actually trained as an attorney and teacher, but I'm also a techie and a quick study. I believe the CNC, especially for my plans, is a difference maker. If I am wrong, well, this will be a pretty expensive hobby

  7. #7
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    Buying the Panels will be the best bet and like others have said Most lumber yards will give better prices on bulk orders. Let the lumber yards do what there good at and put all of your energy into creating and growing your items and business.

    My local lumber yard makes panels for us alot cheaper than I could because we dont have a area setup for this. We have a small planer and jointer but its nothing compared to our lumber yard they have some huge equipment made just for this task.
    3X Camfive 1200 48" x 24" 100watt Tube
    Zcorp 450 3d Printer
    Laguna Smartshop 2 - 4x8 ATC

  8. #8
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    You might ask yourself: "Do I really need a 4 X 8 panel?" Most projects will require MUCH smaller panels, and the cost of producing a large panel will be much greater than smaller ones. In addition, part layout on a large panel would be harder, and more wasteful, than a smaller one.
    With the addition of a jointer, you could easily produce however many smaller panels you need, and have better control of grain and color matching. You could also find someone to wide-belt sand then for you, too.
    Trying to surface and joint solid lumber on the CNC would take MUCH longer than with standard woodworking equipment.
    I run a Shopbot at work, and have cut a lot of different materials. I've only cut a solid-wood 4 X 8 panel once, and that was for a bed headboard.
    I would encourage you to learn as much as possible about woodworking, especially solid-wood properties and joinery. I've seen a lot of CNC projects that treat solid wood like plywood and other sheet goods, and that don't use the joinery appropriate for solid wood.Those projects will end up failing, if they haven't already done so.I would encourage you to learn what joints to use, especially those involving end grain.Not all CNC joints are appropriate for solid wood.
    Good luck with your endeavors, and keep us posted on how you're doing!
    Rick

  9. #9
    Rick is absolutely correct. I missed that you were talking about ordering 4'x8' solid wood panels. It is much easier (less expensive) for most shops to make panels the size you need. I still think you are better off subbing out the work to a shop with the proper equipment. To do it yourself on an efficient basis you need not only a substantial jointer and planer but a good clamping setup, a wide belt sander and the means to dispose of a large quantity of chips and dust. Making 4'x8' solid glueups, if that is what you really want, is a very laborious process for all but an industrial shop. Bear in mind that keeping such panels flat enough to process on a cnc router requires control of the moisture content throughout the process. That is part of what I mean by qualifying a vendor. It also includes finding a partner who is able to meet whatever appearance standards you set- if you are very particular about grain and color matching it will be harder to find a good one.

  10. #10
    Why don't you just make your own panels on the cnc? Deck them off with a big 4" vortex fly cutter, profile cut the perimeter which will give you a glue ready edge. Maybe a few biscuits, dowels, or better yet run a spline groove on the edge (make your splines on your 13" planer. Glue them up, and deck them off again with the vortex. No jointer needed and surely your machine isn't going to be running 8 hour shifts. In the off time have it running your panels.

  11. #11
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    I appreciate everyone's responses. I thought I would update the thread with some of my research findings. Interestingly, some shops that I spoke to will produce a 4x8 panel cheaper than smaller panels, while others will do the opposite. I suspect this has to do with equipment, lumber sourcing etc. Either way, I would be breaking down the panels to the sizes I actually need. I agree that I would rarely if ever need to CNC a full 4x8 panel.

    At this point I think I have found that subbing out the production of edge glued panels actually makes economic sense. My lumber cost + time compared to paying for a panel "ready to go" seems pretty competitive.

  12. #12
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    I will never forget watching one of the last seasons of Norm building stuff in his PBS Shop. He visited a home looking at something he wanted to build. It was a house that got a SOLID WOOD Table that NORM BUILT a few years ago on the show. HE pointed out the BISCUIT Shrink Marks at every joint in the table top saying that He no longer used biscuits with the NEW MODERN GLUES or words to that effect.... That left an impression on me.

    Good Luck with your wood adventure. I know you mentioned going Commercial from a hobby and this is a good thing. When thinking of the Equipment Investment remember the Tax Benefits of a 5 or 7 year depreciation of your adventure. Talk to your tax person about the tax advantages depending on the way you go either hobby or as a business.

    My little shop went the business route and being able to deduct operating and equipment stuff is a good thing.

    Good Luck

    AL
    1 Laser, 4 CarveWrights, Star 912 Rotary, CLTT, Sublimation, FC7000 Vinyl, 911 Signs, Street Signs, Tourist Products and more.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by AL Ursich View Post
    I will never forget watching one of the last seasons of Norm building stuff in his PBS Shop. He visited a home looking at something he wanted to build. It was a house that got a SOLID WOOD Table that NORM BUILT a few years ago on the show. HE pointed out the BISCUIT Shrink Marks at every joint in the table top saying that He no longer used biscuits with the NEW MODERN GLUES or words to that effect.... That left an impression on me.
    AL
    Its a common problem with shrinkage and swelling immediately after assembly. The work around if you still want to use biscuits to aid alignment (they add no strength in long grain glue ups anyway) is just not to glue the biscuit or its slot, only the board edge. We occasionally still use biscuits to help with alignment and reduce final sanding/prep but just dont glue the biscuits.

  14. #14
    Seen too many "open end panels" to buy any without guarantee. I've always used sprung joints and personally garantee they won't open up. I'm wondering if you bought good flat dressed material , could CNC make sprung joints? I've seen open joints on some extremely expensive stuff including a pipe organ console.

  15. #15
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    One could make a sprung joint on a CNC, but you would have to figure out the radius. That is not complicated math once you know the gap you want. A parallel joint cutter would make for an easy glue up, but you would have a zig zag profile at the ends. This would be a bit time consuming compared to traditional machines.

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