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Thread: FWW Done it Now! Just read the grizz review.

  1. #31
    I buy FWW for the pictures and Playboy for the articles....
    Tom


    Measure twice, ensure your measuring the right board three times, cut once.

  2. #32
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    The responses to my posts in this thread have all been excellent. Bravo Gang!

    I think Mike Cutler's posts says it most as does the one by markus shaffer. The reason I was hard on the review is the Dr. Hiram Von Fibulator testimony. Where some so called expert uses a psudo science to convince the masses of a fact that is clearly false. Yup, this Dr. Fibultor is total fiction. But the point is clear.

    Had the writer done this correctly (not process correct but fibulator correct) he would have began by establishing say 0.002 variation on the grizz. We all know there is no perfect score. By establishing one for the grizz, he sank his argument right from the get go by using perfect numbers. Then he needed to understand the limits of his instruments. Mike Cutler is correct. You have not lived until you buy NIST traceable hardware. Simple looking items pack MASSIVE price tags!

    And tone down those values a bit! If a jointer is within 0.005 flat, your doing super good and within 0.010, your still have a pretty good winner on your hands. As mentioned, were cutting wood here. Not parts for some deep space probe to Pluto!

    I think one of my fears is that folks will take these numbers to heart and believe them. They will use these numbers for comparisions. Life in woodworking machines is not that complex. Relax if your off by a few thou as it does not really matter!

    What I find funny is this. The domestic generals have always been known for fit and finish. You general owners can attest to this. The grizz jointer design wise is a copy of generals older 8 inch jointer. Fancy That. So draw your own conclusions from here on excluding the original fit and finish machines.

    But I dont care if they copy one design or another. The fact is, this corporate inbreeding has been going on for 50 to 70 years! The US woodworking industry was not only borrowing ideas from each other, they were borrowing employees as well. There was a time when entire family generations were employed where gramps worked for oliver and dad worked for moak (in the same city I may add) and jr was working for northfield or yates. The traditional machines are old designs so power to any company that copies these! Go for it I say!

    I will admit that I have an issue here on bias. Remember that Delta had not one but two entries. Only one was the DJ-20. The DJ-15 and DJ-20 have an unusual design based on the parallalogram architecture. The only true competition here is from the german, austrian and itallian companies that make similar machines only much larger. So if we keep within the 8 inch group, the only true parallogram designs are those from Delta.

    Also note that Delta has been making the planers and jointers in Tawian for many years and may be making these designs in China now. So much for the arguments that Dev hates the imports! Import or not, I support the parallogram design.

    When it comes to looking at THE MOTHER OF ALL JOINTERS, there is but one entry in this rarified category. The Martin T-54. This is what happens when engineers are allowed to create the ultimate jointer with no real world constraints. But in the real world, you cannot drive the DuPont Gordon NASCAR entry to the super market. A similar set of real world constraints apply to jointers and the result is the DJ-20. It is a practical average of real world and dream world packaged into a workable machine. And in finding a compromise, we have been able to retain its parallogram features.

    So I too would have to recuse myself from such a study as I would have a bias towards the DJ-20. But for whats its worth, its a bias that was based on objective study over the last 20 to 30 odd years. After all, I had to research and study and make up my own mind for myself. Being that my opinions are first for self consumption and only secondly for mass consumption, does that not have some level of objectivity? I am going to pick the best of the bunch for myself. What I will not do is cloud the issues with pusdo scientific mombo jumbo that others cannot support and objectivly repeat under NIST type standards.

    The main reasons for supporting the DJ-20 are threefold and simple. 1). Parallogram Design. 2). Nice extra long infeed table. 3). Wonderful fit and finish and excellent machine work. In the end, its a jointer and not a rolex watch.

    I do agree with the author about his description regarding the rebate ledge. Here! Here! But he did fail to mention the fact that should you be one of the few who use this ledge, make sure you do not install an insert cutter head. But he did test both on normal wood. Yup, the results were the same more or less. Heck, I could have told you that. I want to see the same test run on Hidious Pagen Grain. I mean the knarlist root burl you can find. Then, you will get another outcome on these heads!
    Last edited by Dev Emch; 11-01-2005 at 9:18 PM.
    Had the dog not stopped to go to the bathroom, he would have caught the rabbit.

  3. #33
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    Smile

    Yaaaa, what Tom Conger said! I want what he said.
    Had the dog not stopped to go to the bathroom, he would have caught the rabbit.

  4. #34
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    Thanks, Dev

    I read somewhere a while back that even though we currently have enough submarines in the navy we have to continue building more. Because the skills and experience needed to build these things are so unique and rare that if we stopped even for three or four years, those skills and experiences will have left for other work, and it would take thirty to forty years to rebuild that skill and experience base. And by that time we'd have totally lost the global edge.

    In a like manner, there are only so many guys out there like Dev. And when it comes to the knowledge base he posesses - well it's just too valuable to lose. And by posting his stuff here, the knowledge base gets passed on forever. My guess is that every time he posts one of his wordy tomes it's costing him lots of time to collect his thoughts, assemble his facts, and type with two fingers. That's time he's chosen to give to us; and I for one am grateful.

    I often don't have a clue what he's talking about, and I'm too crummy a mechanic to ever consider refurbishing a 150 year old beast, but the notion that it happens is refreshing.

    I'm sure he'd admit that while he's often shooting for perfection and zero defects the goal is no where near that.

    Thanks, Dev.
    Only the Blue Roads

  5. #35
    Well, I don't know guys but I have been reading several reviews on 8" jointers and there have been three (different magazine) since September and all three liked the Griz. Cost aside, I liked the Griz over the DJ-20 because of the bed length. After all, that's one of the main reasons to get the wider jointer.
    If sawdust were gold, I'd be rich!

    Byron Trantham
    Fredericksburg, VA
    WUD WKR1

  6. #36
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    FWW is really careless in their reviews....The price of the MinWax poly was off by over 50 %! How can you believe anything they say. It is really ashame there are no publications that are more objective and careful with their reviews.....anyone that has used a DJ 20 knows it is the standard of the 8" jointers. Often they test a number of brands and leave out a major contender....why? I think if you advertise they may remember you....maybe...there is enough politics in politics....I don't need more in woodworking.
    "All great work starts with love .... then it is no longer work"

  7. #37
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    Thank you Andy for your post. I have to say its most humbling.

    Byron, I am confused about your post. You liked the grizz over the DJ-20 because of bed length and that is one reason to get a wider jointer. Most folks would like the longer bed that the DJ-20 offers to handle longer stock. There is nothing special about the bed length of the grizz. Its a standard size for that machine and coresponds to the standards used for 50 or so years. The DJ-20 is the one with the very long infeed bed which I think is great. The new general 8 in has a much longer infeed table as well.
    Had the dog not stopped to go to the bathroom, he would have caught the rabbit.

  8. #38
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    First off, lemme say I pay little attention to reviews...because for one reason or another, I think there's ALWAYS going to be some opinion involved that may 'taint' the results. BUT....what if the Grizzly really is the better machine nowadays? Does the tone of the original post reflect a preconceived notion that there's just no way the Grizzly could be best?

    KC

  9. #39
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    KC, not at all.

    I say bring it on. Instead of having a shoot out on main street, we should have a joint out. Leave the Colt peace makers at home. Bring the jointer of choice and let us all agree on a process of evaluation. Lets say a matrix of 10 grading points with a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being a failure and 10 being God Given perfect. Lets have multiple judges as well like those chilli cook offs. Get some guys and gals from all over the demographic. Put together a booklet on how to be a judge. And then let the chips fall where they may.


    But in all fairness, I dont know how to make it any clearer. I have already stated that the DJ-20 is a compromise machine and I can live with that. But doesn't superior design mean anything these days? I dont mean fit and finish here but intelligent gimmicks that improve the machine. The overhead valve V-8 was a superior design over the older flat head V-8 and the overhead cam, (i.e. no more push rods) V-8 seems to be better than the overhead valve V-8. The parallogram design is the newest and the more superior design in a series of designs that governed jointers for the last 100 years. The grizz and most of the other wedgebeds are quasi obsolete designs as is both my older design oliver 166 and my porter 300 which is also a wedge bed. I have been watching and studying the parallogram jointer for some time now and actually have an engineering drawing from the martin T-54. I have also taken time to inspect the DJ-20 lately and I feel that this design is the design of the future. Every euro jointer I know of is using it. So why is the latest super dooper offering by grizz and several others for that matter still holding tight onto a 60 or 70 year old design?

    If grizz came out with a version of the DJ-20 with their own smell on it, my hat would be off to them. If they make a good, clean machine with no issues, I could even buy one.
    Had the dog not stopped to go to the bathroom, he would have caught the rabbit.

  10. #40
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    As mentioned, any of these reviews are only a snapshot, both of the reviewers personal tests and of the sample machines provided. So take them w/ a grain of salt, and glean what info you can (if any) from the article, and don't sweat it so much

    But while we're on the topic of nitpicking reviews in general, and Grizzly in particular... here's one thats bugged me for a while... Grizzly's G0555 14" bandsaw has had positive reviews from most people that I've read of actually using it. Most individual reviews (i.e. that one product only) have been extremely positive about it. Yet I don't think I've ever seen a bandsaw review w/ that saw stacked up against the Delta, Jet, etc. and other competitors. The magazines always have some oddball Grizzly model that I have to go look in the catalog to be sure it's even still carried, rather than their latest competitive model. Maybe the G0555 would get stomped, maybe it'd show favorably, but for some reason it never seems to end up in the same article...

    YMMV,

    Monte

  11. #41
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    Well, this has turned into a pretty good discussion, but if I may interject something here along the lines of expectations.
    We can dispute the findings of FWW on an academic level, but the reality is, will the jointers(all) in their review perform as expected, and would the woodworker for which these jointers are market priced be able to replicate the results in a satisfactory manner, and get suitable finish results.
    I believe that people are expecting too much performance from machines in the market bracket that these exist, these really are inexpensive machines, when compared to the entire market.
    Trying to compare a 14" Griz', Jet, or Delta to a Minimax, Laguna, or Aggazzani, or even one of Dev's refurbed Walker's is a disservice. These machines were designed from the floor up to hold their individual tolerances over a wide variety of tasks and applications, and be able to perform in a time expedient manner. This doesn't mean that any of the Taiwanese imports cannot perform the same task, it just means that the setup time will be greater in between applications.
    The same holds true for tablesaws, Jointers planers, shapers, etc... I have a Jet contractor table saw, for my needs it is fine, but for someone like Markus, or Paul Cresti, it would be woefully inadequate. They simply would be losing money on the setup time in between tasks, and repetetive applications. For folks that make their living off of their machines, "time is money". As an aside, my Jet will need to replaced due to the changes temperature effecting the flatness of the table. I don't want to have "summer" and "winter" tunings and setups, too much of a pain in the keester.
    I guess my point is this. Have realistic expectations about the capabilities of the machines that you purchase or own, and don't try to compare a 1k to 3K machine to a 15K machine, it just won't work out. Personally, I would rather spend my money at this time on the raw materials, and not the machines, or the latest gizmo/jig.
    Enough meandering from me for now.

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Barton
    As Freud once said, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
    Or as Clinton says, "sometimes it isn't".

  13. #43
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    The reviews can be of a relative value to some of us. If you are like me in an isolated area with few if any dealers within several hundred miles that have any of the major tools in stock on the floor, these reviews serve a purpose. It's 260 miles to Boise, 300+ miles to Seattle, 300+ miles to Portland and 120 miles to Spokane. I'm not sure if any dealers in Spokane have floor models set up for checking fit and finish. I always take these reviews with a grain of salt but last year FWW compared 18" b/s and I was surprised by the outcome and recommendations. After reading several reviews here by new owners, the Rikon 18" is certainly on my short list.

    Secondly, I don't have the money or time to bring in 5 different models by different manufacturers to compare them side by side.

    Thirdly, visiting 3-5 different stores to see each one at a dealer would definitely result in my forgetting what I saw at the other store even if I took notes I'd find something at the current store I'd overlooked at the previous.

    Fourth, the distance and travel time to see these first hand most likely would require overnight travel, motel rooms and meals that would push any savings out the window. I will rely on the SMC membership reiviews more than any magazine reviews.

    As I prepare for some kind of retirement, I want to stock my shop with the best tools I can afford keeping in mind, that if I spend too much for tools, I won't be able to afford to retire and use said tools.

    As stated by others, wood is an unstable medium and my projects won't go to NASA for any reason.

    FWW reviews do serve a purpose but it's relative not specific. If they use the same measuring techniques from machine to machine......We don't know if the manufacturer's "high-balled" them.

    While I can't afford or justify the "high end" European machines, I want the best quality I can afford and after spending nearly 40 years of servicing everything from radars to MR scanners to my own automobiles, I don't want to spend a lot of time rebuilding "old iron" as Dev and Lou so love.

    Lastly.............It's always "buyer beware!".............
    Ken

    So much to learn, so little time.....

  14. #44

    Thanks Dev!

    Thanks Dev!
    I’m sure a large portion of FWW’s subscribers are hobbyist woodworkers with a technical degree in some other field. Short on time, limited experience, and looking to get the most for my money, I go straight to the facts; usually a table full of specs. Without questioning the measured specs as you did, I see a clear winner which matches the authors conclusion. Many of my woodworking tools were bought based on numbers that I later learned truly mean next to nothing.
    GB

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Fitzgerald
    It's 260 miles to Boise, 300+ miles to Seattle, 300+ miles to Portland and 120 miles to Spokane. I'm not sure if any dealers in Spokane have floor models set up for checking fit and finish.
    Ken,
    I'm sure you're familiar with Spokane Power Tool? On Trent, east of the river. They have a lot of machines set on the floor. When I was shopping for a table saw, I went there to look. They had the General, Delta, Powermatic, Jet, and Shop Fox. Even CDA Power tool has a few models to look at, though not as much as the Spokane store....
    Go Big, or Go Home... He who has the gold, makes the rules

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