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Thread: Combination Plane and Lee Valley feedback

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post
    If you want the bead outer curve to blend into the line of the wood then the outside cutter protrudes beyond the wood. The wooden fence would have to be flush with the blade and would push it back in. The solution may be to cut a diagonal groove in the wooden fence to recess the blade edge. It would require two diagonal grooves in a cross pattern for right and left operation.
    OK, so this is a huge clue as to how you're going wrong. The top edge of the LV combo's fence sits about 0.05" below the bottom of the skate. The only way you could possibly see a collision between fence and cutter is if you're taking an outrageously deep cut. Why don't you try backing off the depth adjust a LOT and see if all of your problems go away?

    To be very clear, the skates of a combo plane are supposed to extend almost (within a few thousandths) to the deepest part[s] of the cutter profile. Some folks like Jim have made reference in other threads to "advanced techniques" that use more extension than that in very specific cases, but you don't want to learn the tool by starting out that way. The skates are supposed to ride along the deepest part of the cut.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 10-08-2017 at 3:01 PM.

  2. #62
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    Some folks like Jim have made reference in other threads to "advanced techniques" that use more extension than that in very specific cases, but you don't want to learn the tool by starting out that way.
    Even those "advanced techniques" mentioned in some of my other posts start with the blade making a light cut and is then slightly advanced on following passes.

    Interesting how one unmentioned detail may have been behind so many responses.

    The good of it is there are many tips and techniques mentioned by folks trying to troubleshoot the OP's difficulties.

    The sad part of it is most searches for information on how to use a combination plane will not likely find this thread.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    OK, so this is a huge clue as to how you're going wrong. The top edge of the LV combo's fence sits about 0.05" below the bottom of the skate. The only way you could possibly see a collision between fence and cutter is if you're taking an outrageously deep cut. Why don't you try backing off the depth adjust a LOT and see if all of your problems go away?

    To be very clear, the skates of a combo plane are supposed to extend almost (within a few thousandths) to the deepest part[s] of the cutter profile. Some folks like Jim have made reference in other threads to "advanced techniques" that use more extension than that in very specific cases, but you don't want to learn the tool by starting out that way. The skates are supposed to ride along the deepest part of the cut.
    Patrick you may have it here. The person that I sold my last 45 to called me saying that he could not get the plane to cut beads. It turned out that he was trying to set the iron so the top of the bead was even with the bottom of the skates because he thought the skates were like the frog on a regular plane. He had already cut rabbets with it so seeing the exposed skates had him baffled. Honest error.
    Jim

  4. #64
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    IF you are out in the middle of a panel.....leave the fence off...clamp a thin batten along the path of the bead you want to plough. The let the plane tell IF you are leaning left or right, by the way the cutter acts.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Pallas View Post
    Patrick you may have it here. The person that I sold my last 45 to called me saying that he could not get the plane to cut beads. It turned out that he was trying to set the iron so the top of the bead was even with the bottom of the skates because he thought the skates were like the frog on a regular plane. He had already cut rabbets with it so seeing the exposed skates had him baffled. Honest error.
    Jim
    Yeah, as a (former) product designer I have a keen appreciation for how users behave when confronted with unintuitive devices, and I don't think that anybody would describe a combo plane as intuitive. As I alluded earlier somebody who's only used flat-soled bench planes may be at a particular disadvantage. A light went off in my head when I saw that post about fence collisions. I bet that's a really common user error mode with these planes.

    In LV's defense, they do have a pretty good illustration of skate and fence placement for bead cutting on p. 5 of the instructions (and it does clearly show the fence under the near edge of the cutter).
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 10-08-2017 at 7:53 PM.

  6. #66
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    Lots of good information here! After some more time moving my fence around I see for right handed use my fence is crooked. The front end is level with the skate the back end is below. I have twice as much wood at one end to the other above the casting. There is a very small gap between the skate and the fence. Derek's idea of planing a bit off the fence is good. In my case mostly off the front. Easy to see why having it under the cutter seems impossible, certainly in any working way.

    I will make a new fence for now.

    Putting different beading cutters in, both edge supports engage, left or right. What I find interesting is the large retaining screw that holds the edge of the blade is a precise fit. I mean the screw head precisely bottoms out exactly as the screw end touches the blade edge. It does this for every blade width. Note to self: Never hone the blade edges! There is not even a spare 1/4 turn. As blade tolerances will vary this is a little worrying.
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post
    Lots of good information here! After some more time moving my fence around I see for right handed use my fence is crooked. The front end is level with the skate the back end is below. I have twice as much wood at one end to the other above the casting. There is a very small gap between the skate and the fence. Derek's idea of planing a bit off the fence is good. In my case mostly off the front. Easy to see why having it under the cutter seems impossible, certainly in any working way.
    No, it is not "easy to see why having it under the cutter seems impossible". The wooden fence only extends <0.01" above the casting on that plane (I just went and measured mine), so even if there were "twice as much wood" at the front as you describe you would still have plenty of clearance for the iron.

    Reasonable cutter extensions in planes like this are on the order of 1/100", and and less than that for good surface quality. Can you position the fence under the main skate and use shims to measure the actual clearance at the iron? If it's more than, say, 1/32" you're good to go, period (I just measured mine at 0.045"). The situation you describe would only "seem impossible" to somebody who has absolutely no sense of how the tool is supposed to work. Minimal fence clearance in a plane like this is a feature, not a design or manufacturing flaw.

    If you get in over your head like this in the future then you might consider asking for help instead of providing "feedback" about "wracking".
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 10-09-2017 at 12:21 AM.

  8. #68
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    Ease off a bit there, Bert.

    It would seem the WOOD part of the fence was installed crooked....on end higher than the other? The low end CAN get under the skate, but the "high" end won't let it, as it hits the skate.

    Since a "new" hole won't work to lower the high end.....just re-do the fence with a new block of wood. Maybe this time around, make sure there is clearance under the skate at BOTH ends.

    On a Stanley #45, I simply install the rods through the upper holes instead of the lower ones on the fence. Used it the last time on a match cutter, to mill a tongue. Apparently, the Combo is a mere "Two-Holer". Stanley was a four....

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by steven c newman View Post
    Ease off a bit there, Bert.

    It would seem the WOOD part of the fence was installed crooked....on end higher than the other? The low end CAN get under the skate, but the "high" end won't let it, as it hits the skate.
    Nope, he said "there is a very small gap between the skate and the fence" such that it "SEEMS impossible" that the fence would clear (emphasis added). Nowhere did he say that the fence actually interferes with the skate. He just misjudged things.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    No, it is not "easy to see why having it under the cutter seems impossible". The wooden fence only extends <0.01" above the casting on that plane (I just went and measured mine), so even if there were "twice as much wood" at the front as you describe you would still have plenty of clearance for the iron.

    Reasonable cutter extensions in planes like this are on the order of 1/100", and and less than that for good surface quality. Can you position the fence under the main skate and use shims to measure the actual clearance at the iron? If it's more than, say, 1/32" you're good to go, period (I just measured mine at 0.045"). The situation you describe would only "seem impossible" to somebody who has absolutely no sense of how the tool is supposed to work. Minimal fence clearance in a plane like this is a feature, not a design or manufacturing flaw.

    If you get in over your head like this in the future then you might consider asking for help instead of providing "feedback" about "wracking".
    Patrick the wracking has nothing to do with cutter clearance. Cutter depth certainly makes it more difficult, but even on a very light cut the knobs came loose. It is designed to reach across wood in that fashion for some cuts.

    By your reckoning a 1/2" bead would require 50 cuts, and as you move down the wood this number increases. That does seem reasonable as just planing a piece of wood 1/2" would require more.

    I do not see why the small clearance is a "feature" of this type of plane. The small clearance serves no purpose and in one case is detrimental. I refer to using the nickers, when they are exposed sliding the fence around will catch on the nickers and scratch two grooves across the top of the fence. This won't sharpen the nickers. If you don't believe me (which would not surprise me!) take a look at the Lee Valley Combination Plane glossy brochure, front page. Their model plane shows exactly those scars! Perhaps their fence is a little skewed at the front also!

    Lowering the fence slightly is not detrimental and may help mitigate blunting the nickers.

    I've never been "in over my head", not even when I routinely dived to 50 meters.
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

  11. #71
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    There's a lot of good info in this thread. What I would hope to see is that William comes back from his visit with Lee Valley to give us all a great session of "Lessons Learned" about his new combination plane. For myself I'm still contemplating how to get one for myself. I very much like my Stanley 45 and I use it. I know that the new Lee Valley has to be better from my past experiences with their products.
    Jim

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by James Pallas View Post
    There's a lot of good info in this thread. What I would hope to see is that William comes back from his visit with Lee Valley to give us all a great session of "Lessons Learned" about his new combination plane.
    +1 ...

    Fred

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post
    Patrick the wracking has nothing to do with cutter clearance. Cutter depth certainly makes it more difficult, but even on a very light cut the knobs came loose. It is designed to reach across wood in that fashion for some cuts.
    Yep, and people who have experience with and knowledge of this sort of plane have found that it can reach across just fine. I've tried it and it works. There are plenty of ways to mess up with a combo though, and there's no shame in "discovering" those when you're new to the tool (I certainly did, over and over again). There is only shame in not recognizing when that's the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post
    By your reckoning a 1/2" bead would require 50 cuts, and as you move down the wood this number increases. That does seem reasonable as just planing a piece of wood 1/2" would require more.
    50 cuts for 1/2" sounds about right, keeping in mind that that's an aggressive cut that will tend to leave tearout and other surface issues. To put things in perspective, here's the mouth opening of a wooden hollow plane, which performs a broadly similar function. I doubt very much that you could pass even a 0.01" shaving through that gap.

    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post
    I do not see why the small clearance is a "feature" of this type of plane. The small clearance serves no purpose and in one case is detrimental.
    The small clearance has no value in itself, but having the fence extend as high as it possibly can while still clearing the skates provides better support. In particular it makes it harder to rock the plane about the top inside corner of the fence, which is a perennial problem with ploughs and combos that you will undoubtedly hit at some point as you develop experience and skill with this plane.

    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post
    I refer to using the nickers, when they are exposed sliding the fence around will catch on the nickers and scratch two grooves across the top of the fence. This won't sharpen the nickers.
    The nickers shouldn't extend (much) deeper than the cut, so they clear for exactly the same reason that the iron itself clears. As a bonus, setting those properly prevents the folding problems that folks have been complaining about.

    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post
    If you don't believe me (which would not surprise me!) take a look at the Lee Valley Combination Plane glossy brochure, front page. Their model plane shows exactly those scars! Perhaps their fence is a little skewed at the front also!
    Link?
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 10-09-2017 at 1:05 PM.

  14. #74
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    50 cuts for 1/2" sounds about right
    Most of the time my planes are set for a much less aggressive cut.

    Just for fun my video of cutting some molding has me using about 50 passes to cut some 1/4" beads with a #45. Many of these were not full length passes. For me that is about as aggressive as it gets. often the blade is set for a lighter cut. In the video you can see it is taking a bit of work as the blade gets deeper. At the beginning the shavings are thin strips from the tips of the quirk cutting edges. As it cuts deeper the shavings become wider. This is where an improper relief angle on the bevel can cause problems. A beading blade needs a relief angle all around the profile. If the relief angle isn't maintained during sharpening the blade will tend to bind in use.

    One of the molding planes in "Old Molding Planes and the Rehab Enthusiast" has such a relief angle problem that is discussed and corrected. The blade in this case was a more complex shape, but relief angle issues can plague any plane blade.

    This article may explain it better:

    https://blog.lostartpress.com/2017/0...plane-cutters/

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 10-09-2017 at 6:34 PM. Reason: spelling & add link
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  15. #75
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    There is only shame in not recognizing when that's the case.
    Err Patrick; in boxing, that would be deemed a low blow.

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