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Thread: Japanese vs Western vs Chinese tools- can someone comment on strengths/weakness?

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley Covington View Post
    Allow me to qualify. I am speaking to replaceable-blade saws with induction-hardened teeth cutting hard wood, rather than hardwood/ Some hardwoods are soft, but others are hard and tend to break the teeth of most such saws. They are simply more fragile. People with a lot of skill and/or experience work around this easily. But don't forget, I am answering Matt's questions, and he is neither experienced nor skilled.
    Ouch!! But so true. I am neither experienced nor skilled.

    Thankfully, I'm still alive and have time to improve.
    In the meanwhile, I'm in the wide-eyed excitement new guy stage.
    It still astounds me to cut a straight line with a handsaw or to have a clean cut with a chisel...baby steps, to you; superpowers to me.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    First off, in my opinion Japanese tools are about as sophisticated as could be, and light years ahead of Western equivalents.
    I see Steve’s point that this one quote taken out of context is totally absurd. Just look at planes. Western Planes have had far more intricate and complex designs for at least 2 centuries... Japanese plane makers just recently decided to add chip breakers after 500 or so years, bringing the new total parts count to two metal wedges and one wooden block (with a pin, but that doesn’t move).

    I own both styles of tools in every category and find strengths and weaknesses in both, but pure sophistication... just count total moving parts, total precisely measured parts, total parts providing added functions. Words mean things and sophistication is just the opposite of simplicity. Sophisticated is quite literally the opposite of a block of wood with an iron wedge driven in.

    Japanese tools are arguably more evolved or refined for their intended purpose. For example I own some fine old Ward &Payne chisels and I love them, but they can’t match the 15mm white steel chisel Stan sent me when it comes to benchtop mallet or hammer driven chopping tasks. The Japanese pore nomi is as evolved as a malleted-chopping device can be. The edge retention is also better and it either doesn’t chip or BARELY micro chips in the hardest use I can put it thru. The ergonomics are not great for paring, but then There is a separately-evolved tool for that task. There is a proper tool for each job vs a Stanley 45.

    I think if you want to be a minimalist or you enjoy taking a creative problem solving approach to woodworking, Western tools in many cases are more flexible, and can be had cheaper in the US. If you want the most refined current production edge tools or if you’re ok with becoming a tool collector, just explore the Japanese tool rabbit hole. Start with a chisel or two from Stan and judge whether or not it’s worth experimenting further. Be warned though, the tools WILL multiply and the ones worth owning are not cheap.

  3. #63
    Hey Mark,

    I'm with Derek on this one.

    In my bedroom, I have a Lee Valley Custom Jointer, a Norris A5 (refurbing), Lie Nielson 103, Three different router planes (Walker Moore, Old wooden router, LV router), Mujingfang high angles, and two Takeo Nakano planes.
    I have the LA small smoother and LA jack in my workshop.
    While the Lee Valley is the most "sophisticated" (with multiple setscrews, milled everything, superb QC), I prefer my Japanese planes.

    Sure it's dead flat. It's truly nice and allows repeatable, very high performance.
    However, it's not as intuitive in use (and yes, I'm self taught at both systems; and started with western planes).

    In my profession (dentistry), we use all sorts of gadgets.
    There's a lot of different gimmicks that involve "sophistication"--Stuart Full Mouth Articulators, TENS units, incisal tracings, setscrews on teeth, Centric Relation Mountings, etc.
    However, IMHO the highest praise is for tools/results that dissappear and let you get the results you desire with the least amount of trouble.

    Yesterday, I presented a case to a lady with worn down teeth.
    It's taken me about 5 hours of intensive workups, diagnostics, and consultations prior to seeing her.
    When we had her in the chair, the result was some plastic shells that would allow her to feel/see how her final result would be.

    These plastic shells are using maybe $2 of material---but took about $2500 of tooling, stone, and man hours to make.
    Very simple-- but very not.

    IMHO, the Japanese tools are the same way.
    Very simple--but very not.

  4. #64
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    I tend to agree that while simple, these tools are thoughtfully designed and successfully use material to its maximum ability.
    Reading the word sophisticated I understand its literal definition to be very similar to 'complex' and yet I interpret the word to mean nuanced when it is applied to tools as opposed to its meaning when applied to intellectual though in which complexity has a positive connotation. Complex in regard to tools can be considered a poor attribute, but not always.

    I think an 18th century type western plane is highly nuanced. I had a Japanese TV crew at my shop recently to film, they wanted to see the use of Japanese tools and techniques and yet they were very interested in David Weaver's try plane, it is very obviously a thoughtfully designed tool.

    One being excellent does not make the other not excellent.

  5. #65
    Totally true!

    And I'm still a sucker for setscrews and milled surfaces.

    Btw, Brian, for the longest time I thought you were a somber British old guy in a suit with a pipe.
    Where did you get your prior avatar photo from?

  6. #66
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    I used it to hide the truth that I am actually a Japanese wood block print

    The previous was King Edward, I am a clothes bound and he is admired in those circles for being always very well dressed.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  7. #67
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    Sophisticated ... ? There has been a few eyebrows raised about my use of this term. For some, there is agreement and others clearly not so.

    There are other descriptors that spring to mind when I think about Japanese tools: elegant .. synergistic .. are just two more. I am especially drawn to art, furniture .. and tool .. designs that pare away the fat and leave you with just enough to be enough. That to me is the correct use of the term "minimalism" ... not having less tools, but having a simple yet complete and ergonomic tool. I like tools that do one thing and do it well.

    If we said, "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts", it may be true, but it would also gloss over the fact that each part is a refinement of centuries of use and design. Japanese tools are the art of subtlety. The manufacture of laminated steels, the use of a chipbreaker, the focus on low angle beds in planes, the use of a gennou for precision in bench chisel work, the way a hoop is fitted on a bench chisel, the canted handle angle of a slick (paring chisel), the reduced dai (sole) area on the sole of a kanna (plane). Zoom in on a Western equivalent and see if you find these aspects in the design and construction. Take note that they were this way on the Japanese tool some centuries ago.

    None of this means that Japanese tools are better than Western tools. But, then, neither should this be inferred that Western tools are better than Japanese tools. There are some on both sides better than the other, and some of each that I prefer using.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Sophisticated ... ? There has been a few eyebrows raised about my use of this term. For some, there is agreement and others clearly not so.

    There are other descriptors that spring to mind when I think about Japanese tools: elegant .. synergistic .. are just two more. I am especially drawn to art, furniture .. and tool .. designs that pare away the fat and leave you with just enough to be enough. That to me is the correct use of the term "minimalism" ... not having less tools, but having a simple yet complete and ergonomic tool. I like tools that do one thing and do it well.

    If we said, "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts", it may be true, but it would also gloss over the fact that each part is a refinement of centuries of use and design. Japanese tools are the art of subtlety. The manufacture of laminated steels, the use of a chipbreaker, the focus on low angle beds in planes, the use of a gennou for precision in bench chisel work, the way a hoop is fitted on a bench chisel, the canted handle angle of a slick (paring chisel), the reduced dai (sole) area on the sole of a kanna (plane). Zoom in on a Western equivalent and see if you find these aspects in the design and construction. Take note that they were this way on the Japanese tool some centuries ago.

    None of this means that Japanese tools are better than Western tools. But, then, neither should this be inferred that Western tools are better than Japanese tools. There are some on both sides better than the other, and some of each that I prefer using.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Sophisticated is an interesting word. There are lots of meanings related to society, personality, and human understanding, but how is the word used to describe physical "things?" One dictionary lists: "complex or intricate, as a system, process, piece of machinery, or the like: a sophisticated electronic control system."

    Anyone that understands Japanese chisels knows that they are more intricate and complex than any other design being made elsewhere nowadays (wasn't always so). Arguably they are more intricate and complex than any chisel design ever made anywhere if we consider the hollow-ground ura and the lands it creates. Not only are they more complex and intricate, and therefore more sophisticated, they are arguably a better design than any chisel made anywhere nowadays.

    Steel chemistry has been beat to a bloody hash many times, so I will not delve into it.

    Perhaps we can agree about chisels, but what about planes? The Japanese plane's block is typically one piece of wood transfixed by a steel rod. It has few cuts, and is clearly NOT intricate or complex even when compared to wooden planes of other countries. Arguably, since it does not need the other parts wooden plane bodies from other traditions employ, and works fine without them, is the additional intricacy really necessary? I don't think so, but each man must judge for himself.

    But what about the plane's blade? The modern Western plane blade is one-piece of uniform-thickness differentially-hardened steel. it is relatively thin. It has cutouts to accommodate a screw to hold the cap iron in place. Baily-design planes have a slot to make room for the depth adjuster. The Baily plane totals 3 complications as I count them.

    The Japanese plane is not differentially hardened, but is laminated of HC steel and low-carbon steel (close to wrought iron). This lamination does not extend all the way to the upper end of the blade. I think the Japanese and Western plane blades are neck-and-neck so far in our analysis.

    The Japanese blade has no holes or cutouts, but it is tapered to wedge into the body without the need of a frog and frog-adjusting mechanism, separate wedge, screws (2), cap-iron, or lever-cap (4-pieces). I see this as a very positive simplification of an obviously over-complicated design. Each man needs to decide for himself. The blade is thicker and the bevel is wider. This makes sharpening easier.The back of the blade is concave across its width to keep it centered/aligned in the block. The front, or flat, of the blade is hollow-ground. The actual cutting edge is only a thin land of HC steel, usually about 1/8~1/16" wide. The corners of the blade are ground at a 45 degree angle (or similar angle). So, according to my count, the Japanese plane blade has 8 complications, and might be seen as more "sophisticated." This is all the blacksmith's work.

    I think that if we counted all the complications of the Baily plane, it would clearly be much more "sophisticated" than the Japanese plane even though its blade is significantly less sophisticated.

    So ask yourself if you prefer a sophisticated plane with a complex mechanism comprised of many moving parts, few of which do any actual cutting, or a less-sophisticated plane with fewer parts and no mechanisms, but with has a much more sophisticated blade to do the actual cutting.

    There is no right or wrong answer, and each man must judge for himself. But I would urge you to give the planes of the various traditions a good tryout before you make a declaration of judgement or you may end up denying yourself an interesting education.

    Stan
    Last edited by Stanley Covington; 11-12-2017 at 1:24 AM.

  9. #69
    I see the point that many subtle refinements add up to a lot of complexity hidden in plain sight.

    I guess what came to mind for me from the use of sophisticated specifically was that we seem to be using it more in terms of how we would describe a refined, well traveled, well spoken human. It’s understandable, because when I use a hand forged oire nomi and see the performance and all the little imperfections that make it my chisel; i do want to talk about it like it’s my new best friend. But it’s still just a chisel, not a Stanley Covington or a Brian Holcombe.

    Maybe my bias is the other direction because I’m a western engineer- so sophisticated in an object to me means engineering and I’m prone to overlook subtle refinement. My wife is more artistic and she says my kanna and Dutch planes are more sophisticated without hesitation.

    Either way I have enormous respect for Brian and Stanley and Derek because I’ve seen the work you all do with either category of tools.

    I’m no expert but my thought on what the OP was looking for:
    I really developed an appreciation for two characteristics of the kanna that western iron body planes don’t really match. One is The lowered bed angle allows lower pulling force so you can run a standard 70mm wide smoothing kanna thru most hardwoods without too much effort. The extra width over a western smoother allows fewer passes, and the wooden body helps burnish and blend the passes together so I find I get a clean surface faster with less chance of error on my part as long as I have set it up just right. Point two is the lower bed angle handles most end grain smoothly and easily, which I appreciate leveling up exposed joints and I really appreciate when I have a piece Like a fitted shelf just a smidge too wide and need a few thousandths off the end grain. A western block plane works also, but many times the pull action can be more ergonomic and reduces my margin for error on finishing touches and assembly. I seem to struggle to keep a narrow short block plane square on a board edge or end that isn’t in a vise, but with a kanna I get consistent results.
    Last edited by Mark Ackman; 11-12-2017 at 2:50 AM. Reason: New thought

  10. #70
    Agree with all the comments on "sophisticated". It's so flexible. It's used ironically, pejoratively,and positively. New designs are sophisticated ....but eventually replaced by new stuff "less complicated".

  11. #71
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    Hi Mark

    I wanted to say "welcome" to the forum.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

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