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Thread: Japanese vs Western vs Chinese tools- can someone comment on strengths/weakness?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Noah Magnuson View Post
    I would hesitate to claim actual sharpness is superior in one or the other. Hardness, brittleness, sharpenabilty, etc. often differ between the western and Japanese chisels and planes (can't speak for current Chinese metallurgy), but the level of sharpness can be achieved with either. It is often an issue of whether you tend to work a lot of very hard woods or not whether one functions better or not, but the same can be said even for the many different "western" tool metals.


    I definitely find it is worth having a small kit of Japanese saws regardless, and I find the Japanese saws function extremely well in certain cases for me like flush and trim cuts and very fine work, but I really like my western saws for most things and I seem to keep the cut true more easily. I have no experience with Japanese planes. I like my PM-V11 chisels and can't imagine much difference in function between good western and good eastern chisels.
    Good points.

    I'm definitely a novice here. I guess that I started with some Japan Woodworker "house brand" white steel chisels a while back, and found they were much better than the hardware store chisels at the BORG.
    Later, I got some used Matsushige white steel chisels off ebay, which were much, much sharper.
    Then, Stan Covington helped me get my first real set of good chisels...which were even better yet! Thanks, Stan!

    Over the years, I've tried some ebay chisels--Berg, Witherby, Swan, Butcher, etc...not bad, but the Japanese stuff seems to hold a keener edge.
    I have a beautiful paring chisel from Blue spruce-- beautiful and balanced, but the edge isn't close as nice as the Japanese stuff.
    Ditto for the Hock Irons, A2 LN iron, and the LV PM-13 irons as well...they work, but not as nice as the Japanese stuff.

    This is more pronounced trying to plane end grain spruce.

  2. #32
    I'm not trying to troll here, just trying to hear and encapsulate the collective wisdom of guys that use these tools more than me.
    Over the years looking over the threads, it seems that these "make sense":

    Ripping long boards by hand-- western saw,
    Cross cutting big boards-- western saw
    small joinery cuts/dovetails/etc-- Japanese saw; Pricier western saws (LN, BadAxe, LV, etc)
    Finish planing-- western, Chinese or Japanese planes;
    Personally, I find the Japanese plane to work best when I don't have a proper western workbench (which i don't. I have a floorbench and a blum workbench). Also, I live in a very stable climate for humidity/temp, so warping isn't an issue
    If I was in 4 seasons zone, Western tools would be much more appealing as the soles won't warp as much (I'd assume).
    Chinese (Mujingfang) planes work quite well, but are pretty rough and require lots of work. For high silicate woods, I don't mind abusing mine (it's cheap, and the steel is super tough)
    Infill planes are a fourth category IMO, it's western, but reminds me of Japanese planes--heavy laminated blade, mostly wedged in place. Norris planes are slightly different, but I think a hammer may work better on mine.
    Chisels-- both would work fine.
    Chinese--I haven't gotten them, but assume that it'd work as well as the other guys. Probably cheaper and rougher
    Japanese-- gets very sharp. Takes lots of abuse. With ring, handle will not split. I feel closer to the work.
    Western-- takes more abuse on blade. I've never gotten comfy with it, but probably because of what I'm used to.
    Shoulder plane-- Western one is better. My Japanese "rehab project" was warped and blade impossible to align...I ended up bartering it away on some craigslist thing.
    Plough plane-- can't comment. Haven't used either enough.
    Spokeshave-- western -- having a metal wear plate is good. I haven't tried the chinese version yet.

    Again, I'm a total novice. Only recently have I realized that a real workbench would be really, really nice and necessary!

    But yes, I'm used to being broke...so I was mainly looking at the cheaper offerings.
    Since this is just a hobby, I can't justify spending a lot of money on stuff if I don't have everything needed for my patient care.
    While my accountant says that I'm fine, I feel that there's a lot of ways to improve--especially when I see some stuff from Europe.

  3. #33
    Oh, IMHO, one edge for Japanese tools is that you can customize it to your hand much easier than a Stanley.

    One of my most treasured tools (if not my MOST treasured tool) is the Kosaburo Gennou.
    I'd bought the hammer head from Stan, and tried making a handle for 10 months before calling it quits.
    Stan generously helped me make a handle.

    It came in the day my office flooded, and I had to remove about 2 gallons of hardened dental stone from the stone bins.
    After some mild adjustment with a block and compass plane, it's the best feeling tool I've ever used.

    I have to give a big thanks to Stan for his generosity and kindness.


    As for fettling a Japanese plane, I'm not the greatest expert.
    My understanding (from talking to Hida Tool plane repair guy) is this:
    1. Fettle the blade. Make sure no knicks sticking out.
    2. Using oil on blade, check the bed. Pare until you have a close, intimate fit.
    3. Find high spots/warps on sole. Plane/scrape so that you have 2 (3?) points of contact.
    4. In future times, check for flatness prior to heavy use. The body will shift/warp periodically.

    Of course, there's a bunch of guys here with more skill than me.

  4. #34
    Hey Patrick,

    I'm not sure about Brian Holcombe money, but Stan helped me find and buy chisels from a very good smith.
    They're plain white steel, with nothing fancy--but handle and cut so well!

    At the time, I hadn't paid myself for a year at my new dental office, so these seemed expensive.
    But looking back, I am extremely grateful that he'd gotten me such a high quality chisel as a low price.

    Since you're nearby, you're welcome to set up a time to try mine out.
    In Stan's view, they are every bit as good as the Konobu and Kunikei chisels.
    I won't tell you the price, as I'd promised him. But I will say that these are incredibly good chisels at twice the price.

    Also, in terms of planes, I can say that the Takeo Nakano planes are extremely high quality and underrated.
    They're really special. I got mine from Two pines trading for $175.

    -Matt

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    There are a lot of manufactured Japanese tools on the market, even "high-end" ones (cue one of Stan's diatribes about the new generation of toolmakers adopting rikizai here). Unless the OP is willing to allocate "Brian Holcombe money" to his tool budget he's therefore likely to end up with manufactured stuff either way.

    IMO that's not inherently a bad thing, though. There are some very good manufactured tools out there, and IMO the difference between hand-forging and "manufacturing" is rapidly narrowing with the advent of things like PM steels. Why bother pounding the living daylights out of a hunk of metal over a hot forge to refine the grain along one axis when you can buy it processed such that it's similarly refined on all axes?

    Don't get me wrong: I am in awe of both the quality of a lot of the mass-market Japanese "manufactured" stuff (see previous post) and of the enduring Japanese tradition of fine hand-toolmaking. I just want to make sure we're not thinking magically here :-)

  5. #35
    Hey Stan,

    Good to have you chime in here.
    It's good to hear your thoughts, as I see you as the Al Carruth of woodworking tools--super knowledgable without a chip to push.

    I'm still bumbling along with woodworking.
    After a relative's funeral a week before my birthday, I have been really thinking a lot about life and moving forwards.
    Previously, it was always about dentistry...work...paying staff...doing my very best dentistry at the cost of everything else.

    Now, I've learned not to care as much...have time for friendships...make stuff regardless of whether my tool is the "best".
    Life isn't perfect, and it's short. But we may as well enjoy it.

    After I've justified my tools by using them (and after getting a girlfriend), maybe I'll seek the honor of buying more tools from/through you?
    Your tool recommendations have truly been spot on, and money well spent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley Covington View Post
    Each tradition excels in some ways, and is deficient in others.

    I spent a few days in a city called Dongyang in China some years back having some hand-carved architectural woodworking produced for a project in Tokyo. 500 year tradition of hand-carving absolutely stunning products.



    One thing I confirmed is that the craftsman's mind, eye, and hand are far more important than the tools they use. I expected them to use beautiful tools of exceptional design made from excellent materials. The exact opposite was true. The steel was recycled bandsaw blades and files. The chisels were unimpressive compared to Japan and the West. But they got them sharp enough and they cut good enough. Mind, eye and hand executed the style they were trained in superbly. Change the style and details, and there were some problems. Not insurmountable.



    Much of the carving in the cathedrals of Europe is also stunningly deft and beautiful. Same crappy tools.

    I also spent a day with the shop owner and visited a tool market an hour or so away by car. It was all poor quality.

    The next time I visited Dongyang I took some Japanese chisels, a LN skew rabbet plane, and my Liberty dovetail saw (thanks, Pete!) with me. While my order was being filled, the shop owner and foremen and I had a little competition of who could make a dovetailed drawer (box with no lid) from pre-dimensioned softwood lumber. We had a lot of fun. The guys envied my tools. They had never seen tools so well made, and that cut so well. I gifted them the chisels and plane.

    At the same time, I was having steel structural fasteners being produced in another factory in Guangzhou, and visited it regularly. Perhaps things have improved, but I learned that at that time, decent tool-grade steel was not being produced in China. This explained the tools I saw in Dongyang.

    I guess my point is that China is still far far behind the West and Japan when it comes to hand cutting tools. But that does NOT mean that I believe their work or craftsmen or traditions are inferior. But a comparison of tools would be meaningless.

    So I will compare Western to Japanese tools.

    Western chisels vs Japanese chisels: Softer steel than Japanese. Generally, lower-grade steel. Not forged. Simple design.
    Merits: Easier to sharpen; Less likely to chip or break; Less expensive.
    Demerits: Dull relatively quickly; Even when sharp, do not cut as well; Back difficult to keep flat; Handles won't endure as much abuse.

    Western planes (steel body) vs Japanese Planes; Softer steel blades than Japanese. Generally, lower-grade steel. Not forged. Complicated design. Steel sole.
    Merits; Easier to sharpen; Blade less likely to chip; Less expensive (depends on grade); Sole/body is more resistant to scratching/wear; Modern ductile-iron products more durable); Less warping: Easy to fettle.
    Demerits: Much heavier (not always a disadvantage); Dull quicker; Even when sharp, do not cut as well; More difficult to sharpen (blade is relatively thin and even-hardness at bevel).

    Western saws vs Japanese saws (replaceable blade): Much softer teeth than Japanese induction-hardened saws. Simpler teeth. Push instead of pull.
    Merits: Much easier to sharpen. Simple/shallow/softer teeth less-likely to break; Thick plate less likely to kink if abused. Push cut provides more power. Better suited to cutting hardwoods.
    Demerits: Heavier; Longer (bulkier); Dulls quickly; Simple/shallow/softer tooth design does not cut as smoothly/quickly; Not as energy efficient; Wider kerf; Not as good for cutting softwoods.

    I have little use for Western chisels except for special circumstances and for carving (many more shapes, radii, and profiles).

    I pick and choose planes. Western planes are better for some things.

    I like Western saws for hardwoods, contrary grain, and rough work. Japanese saws for speed and smooth cut and precision. And replaceable blades are often very convenient.

    But you already knew all this, right Matt?

    But going back to China, the tools are not as important to the final product as mind, eye and hand. So is it the journey or the destination?

    Stan

  6. #36
    I have been using chisels made in England before 1850. They are very easy to sharpen, have a very fine edge and have terrific edge life. I am no psychologist, but I think they are more sophisticated than the Japanese chisels.
    Last edited by Warren Mickley; 10-16-2017 at 4:14 PM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Lau View Post
    Oh, IMHO, one edge for Japanese tools is that you can customize it to your hand much easier than a Stanley.

    One of my most treasured tools (if not my MOST treasured tool) is the Kosaburo Gennou.
    I'd bought the hammer head from Stan, and tried making a handle for 10 months before calling it quits.
    Stan generously helped me make a handle.

    It came in the day my office flooded, and I had to remove about 2 gallons of hardened dental stone from the stone bins.
    After some mild adjustment with a block and compass plane, it's the best feeling tool I've ever used.

    I have to give a big thanks to Stan for his generosity and kindness.


    As for fettling a Japanese plane, I'm not the greatest expert.
    My understanding (from talking to Hida Tool plane repair guy) is this:
    1. Fettle the blade. Make sure no knicks sticking out.
    2. Using oil on blade, check the bed. Pare until you have a close, intimate fit.
    3. Find high spots/warps on sole. Plane/scrape so that you have 2 (3?) points of contact.
    4. In future times, check for flatness prior to heavy use. The body will shift/warp periodically.

    Of course, there's a bunch of guys here with more skill than me.
    Absolutely, Stan has helped me tremendously!
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    I have been using chisels made in England before 1850. They are very easy to sharpen, have a very fine edge and have terrific edge life. I am no psychologist, but I think they are more sophisticated than the Japanese chisels.
    Those chisels are by and large hand-forged from HCS, broadly similar to white steel. Western makers were producing a lot of laminated edge tools back then, so that isn't unique either.

    Japan is mineral-poor and imports its iron, so I don't understand Stan's claim that it's somehow "of higher quality".

    As I said earlier, I think that a lot of people in this thread are making the mistake of "objectifying" largely subjective differences. We humans seem to have some bizarre need to justify our preferences with claims of superiority.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 10-16-2017 at 7:16 PM.

  9. #39
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    They do import some steel from Sweden, but much of it is produced by Hitachi.

    As far as sophistication goes, Japanese blade smiths were working with polishers as to be able to examine the grain structure of their end product. I don't know if that was also done in the west and if so to what degree. As far as I'm aware they were doing this as early or earlier than the 14th century.

    With respect to tools many Japanese smiths are using highly scientific analysis with traditional method to understand and improve upon their product. They make a product capable of skimming 2 micron shavings from a board as well as perform beautifully in everyday work.
    Last edited by Brian Holcombe; 10-16-2017 at 7:29 PM.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    I have been using chisels made in England before 1850. They are very easy to sharpen, have a very fine edge and have terrific edge life. I am no psychologist, but I think they are more sophisticated than the Japanese chisels.
    Exactly Warren. My point was that the West did make blades of this quality ... for a relatively short period of time. However, this standard has been maintained in Japan for some centuries.

    In what way would you say that the English blades of 1850 were more sophisticated?

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    I have been using chisels made in England before 1850. They are very easy to sharpen, have a very fine edge and have terrific edge life. I am no psychologist, but I think they are more sophisticated than the Japanese chisels.
    Could it be sophistication is in the eye of the beholder?

    It never occurred to me that psychology had anything to do with sophistication.

    sophisticated |səˈfistəˌkādəd|
    adjective
    (of a machine, system, or technique) developed to a high degree of complexity
    Which is more "developed to a high degree of complexity," Japanese chisels or the chisels made in England before 1850?

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  12. #42
    I read it as playing with the word like they were well-bred, learned, stuffy etc. I took it as him making a joke, but maybe not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    Could it be sophistication is in the eye of the beholder?

    It never occurred to me that psychology had anything to do with sophistication.



    Which is more "developed to a high degree of complexity," Japanese chisels or the chisels made in England before 1850?

    jtk

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    Those chisels are by and large hand-forged from HCS, broadly similar to white steel. Western makers were producing a lot of laminated edge tools back then, so that isn't unique either.

    Japan is mineral-poor and imports its iron, so I don't understand Stan's claim that it's somehow "of higher quality".

    As I said earlier, I think that a lot of people in this thread are making the mistake of "objectifying" largely subjective differences. We humans seem to have some bizarre need to justify our preferences with claims of superiority.
    Patrick:

    It is human nature to want to rank things. It is often pointless, but humans will never stop doing it. Do you dispute this? The OP asks newbie questions. Shall we try to answer his questions?

    Some things are indeed subjective. But much can be measured and tested. Hand filed/grinder finished; Flat back/hollow back; Steel hooped handle/leather washer handle; Hard/soft; Long/short; Chip/dent; Warp/stable; Number of moving parts; Cost; Manufacturing time; Impurity levels; Carbide distribution. Such things are not subjective. Do you dispute this? You know this is true, and take great joy in pointing it out with most of your posts. It is strange for you to dismiss facts.

    Japan has little iron ore, and imports all of what it uses. So why does "mineral poor" by itself cast doubt on my claim of"higher quality?" Your logic is puzzling. Is the North Korean blockade of the world's ports preventing ships from traveling between Narvik and Kobe such that only the crappy pig iron from NK is available to Japan?

    Technology has changed a lot in the last 50 years. Impurities are easily measurable by anyone with the money to buy the tools. Impurities impact performance and control of them is critical to quality. Do you dispute this? Dig out the chemical analysis, and do the comparison.

    I assumed Mat was talking about commercially-available new tools, not antiques. Was I mistaken? He tends to buy junk from Ebay, obviously. I assumed this is because he is cheap, and not a collector of antique tools.

    Laminated chisels and plane blades hand-forged from HCS were indeed standard in Europe and the US 200 years ago. Many of those tools were breathtakingly excellent. But only the Japanese make commercially-available off-the-shelf laminated-steel tools nowadays. They are unique. Not subjective. Do you dispute this?

    Warren, as usual, is comparing antique tools that are no longer commonly available, but which he loves, with tools he has never used. It is interesting, but unfortunate since it only "sabotages" the discussion using the original meaning of the word.
    Last edited by Stanley Covington; 10-16-2017 at 9:02 PM.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy bessette View Post
    Gotta disagree with this one statement. Otherwise good post.
    Allow me to qualify. I am speaking to replaceable-blade saws with induction-hardened teeth cutting hard wood, rather than hardwood/ Some hardwoods are soft, but others are hard and tend to break the teeth of most such saws. They are simply more fragile. People with a lot of skill and/or experience work around this easily. But don't forget, I am answering Matt's questions, and he is neither experienced nor skilled.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Pallas View Post
    With all I have read on this forum and other places and some, whatever small personal experience, I have a hard time buying into some magical thing that makes Japanese tools years ahead. They have adopted technology, reshaping and impulse hardening so saw teeth don't break off ie. I'm pretty sure they are using steel from Nash Ramblers and Edsels to make chisels. The idea of having a hand forged tool is intriguing. Just like all the conversations about PMV11 I would guess that someone knows what spices are in the soup. I use some Japanese tools, not high dollar ones. I don't like having to think about breaking saw teeth or chipping a chisel edge tho. I didn't like A2 for the same reasons.
    Jim
    I agree with your objection to "magical." There are a lot of wholesalers and distributors that frantically promote such a viewpoint of Japanese tools. It is lies to put money in their pockets. No one who makes a living with such tools believes a word of it. You would be wise to label anyone who promotes such a dishonest fanciful viewpoint as a crook (aka "marketing genius").

    There is a lot of hype in Japan too. But there is a difference. Japanese people have been obsessed with sharp cutting tools for centuries. It is a part of the national memory. The Brits have the Tower and the Crown Jewels. The Americans have the Liberty bell and Declaration of Independence. The French have the Louvre and Versailles. The Japanese have an ancient sword (Kusanagi) as a national regalia (although it has never been seen in public and may not even exist anymore). Sharp things matter greatly in Japan.

    Ask any sushi chef in Tokyo whether or not the cutting ability of his knives make a difference in the flavor of his foods. Ask any temple carpenter if the cutting ability and durability of finishing plane's blade has any impact on the quality of his work. These people complain like harpies and return tools as defective that do not meet their expectations. Not so much in the West. Western manufacturers are focused on making a usable (tool-like?) product, with a statistically-acceptable number of defects, at a price their customers will pay. The result has been lowered expectations and debased quality from what it once was in the the West. Americans nowadays place highest priority on large volume at low cost, and do not angrily complain and demand refunds and badmouth low quality tools.

    It wasn't always this way in America.

    I am afraid the scrap metal from Nash Ramblers and Edsels turned red and went away long ago! I understand from direct contacts with the manufacturers of high-quality tool steel in Japan that they put some carefully-sorted scrap from known sources into the pot, not cubed cars from Mexican junkyards. There is a lot of chemical testing of scrap before it goes into the pot, which is unusual in the steel world. The majority is Swedish pig-iron (ingots), I am told.

    The thing about manufacturing steel is that, like most things, steel makers simply make the steel that their customer wants at the price point they will pay. Those buyers in turn sell to others, and down the line until it ends up in our hands. I hope Larry Frank chimes in and shares his professional expertise on the subject with us, even though he dislikes HC steel.

    When making steel, one can easily add chemicals to the pot (cost issues are not irrelevant, of course), but it is expensive to remove or eliminate many chemicals. So if the metal in the pot starts out with too much phosphorus, for example, one can add the chemicals and control the temperatures and do the careful mixing that will remove Phosphorus, but this costs money and brain damage. More efficient to start with a pot of purer steel. Ergo Swedish steel and carefully selected scrap.

    But the demand for high-quality HC tool steel is relatively low. A common complaint blacksmiths here in Japan frequently make is that Hitachi can't or won't supply the high-quality steel they want anymore. White Paper and Blue Paper steel are prime examples. Demand is too low to make a pot every month, I am told.

    BTW, something I have observed on this and other forums that is very different from Japan, and I think highlights an interesting difference between the US and Japan in consumer products like tools and washing machines and automobiles. If someone complains about a poor-quality product on a US forum, he is soon silenced by the moderators. I assume this is because the forums are dependent on funding from retailers and wholesalers. Complaints, true or not, are not tolerated for long. In any case, Americans tend to think "that's just his opinion," ignore the complaint, and mind their business. Japan, however, is a very homogenous society, where people think alike. The Herd. People talk and people listen. A bad reputation quickly spreads and is fatal. Lawyers, courts, PR consultants, and conflicted moderators have no control over public opinion. Companies are therefore very careful of their reputation and take complaints very very seriously. This is the forge in which the Japanese automobile manufacturing industry was hammered. Not so the US, as anyone over 50 years of age will differentiate.
    Last edited by Stanley Covington; 10-16-2017 at 10:40 PM.

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