140 Trick

[Jim Koepke]

Really, there should be some sort of law against doing pins first. It's a crime against both nature and logic.

While practicing dovetails my joints came out with less gaps when they were done pins first.

It was a real incentive to do better when cutting the tails first.

My suggestion is for people to try multiple times both pins first and tails first. You may not like the pins first, but they may show you something you missed to help you do better tails first.

jtk

[steven c newman]

No. I do, however have a knifed in line back there, made with a square and a knife. I mark the thickness of the board, by using the board itself,...just a short, little mark. Then the square and knife go all the way around. I stand the pin board up onto the tail board, mark the pins' locations...the saw out the waste, leaving the lines.

Ben a lot of practice at doing it this way....no need a for a crutch. yMMV

[Jim Koepke]

Ben a lot of practice at doing it this way....no need a for a crutch. yMMV

As said earlier:

To me this is a helpful trick somewhat like training wheels.

The apprentice asked the master, "are there any tricks you can teach me to do great dovetails?"

The master said, "yes there are three, practice, practice and practice.

jtk

[ken hatch]

It is not a crutch, It is merely one of many techniques to help the transfer of tail to pin board. Some of the others but not all are using squares, the "Dave Barron jig", using fingers and eye, practice and practice, doing pins first and just not giving a damn how the joint looks. Funny thing is all work and the prettiest joint of the group most likely isn't stronger than the ugliest most snaggletoothed one.

I've tried most ways to mark over the years, cutting a shallow rebate on the tail board has given the most consistent results and the effort to make that rebate is minimum. Can I find other ways to screw up the joint, you bet but miss-marking usually isn't one of them.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

Spent a few hours today in the shop and one thing came to mind about a big advantage to cutting dovetails pins first. If the person is a good sawyer with a good eye, they can cut the pins with just a base line and then mark the tails for cutting. This could likely save a bit of time.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

Really, there should be some sort of law against doing pins first. It's a crime against both nature and logic.

You need a good imagination to do pins first.

[James Waldron]

Spent a few hours today in the shop and one thing came to mind about a big advantage to cutting dovetails pins first. If the person is a good sawyer with a good eye, they can cut the pins with just a base line and then mark the tails for cutting. This could likely save a bit of time.

jtk

With a good eye, one can do the same cutting tails first. With the 140 trick, the base line is already marked, if that technique is used. If not, cut to a base line scribed on the board.

For me, though, the biggest advantage of tails first is the ability to clamp the pin board vertically and lay the tail board on top of the pin end. By using a bit of care, alignment and squaring the layout of the pins is quick and easy. The 140 trick is sometimes helpful with the layout.

When cutting pins first I have not found a comparably stable and accurate way to manage good alignment with the pin board waving about in mid-air above the tail board.

In my experience, I can consistently make boxes or drawers that will sit flat on my bench top with no twist using tails first and my alignment procedure. When I have used pins first in the past, twist was always a risk and gaps much more frequent.

My life has been better since I gave up playing around with pins first.

I don't ordinarily use the 140 trick for shop furniture and such, but when I'm using Honduras mahogany or teak - particularly Burmese teak - I sure as hell do. My eyesight ain't what it once was. When sawing my pins I've been known to nick my base line, and the 140 trick can provide good camouflage when that happens. (So far, I don't have over-cutting problems with tails when I use the 140 trick, as the shoulder of the rebate is easy to see as a stopping point for the back surface and the base line is easy to see on the front of the cut.)

[Jim Koepke]

For me, though, the biggest advantage of tails first is the ability to clamp the pin board vertically and lay the tail board on top of the pin end.

An easy way to align the pin board to the tail board is to place a piece of scrap vertically in a vise or clamped to the bench. Butt the tail board up against it. Set the pin board on the tail board and clamp it to the vertical piece.

This brings to mind a line in the movie RED, "for every problem Monsieur there is a solution."

My life has been better since I gave up playing around with pins first.

This is why my suggestion is for people to try both methods multiple times. Then choose the way that works best for them. Like so many things there are many ways to proceed and they are all valid.

One of my personal observations is cutting pins first requires better skill at sawing.

jtk

[steven c newman]

IMG_2204 (640x480).jpg
Done pins first....

[James Pallas]

I'm not coming down on either side of this age old contest. I do have some questions to ask. How do you layout your dovetails on a lipped drawer. For myself I go pins first. I understand only from reading articles that one of the premier woodworking schools in the country teaches pins first. Why do they do that? Isn't it easier to square the pins than the tails? All those questions asked I usually mark the pins from the tails in most work.
Jim

[James Waldron]

I'm not coming down on either side of this age old contest. I do have some questions to ask. How do you layout your dovetails on a lipped drawer. For myself I go pins first. I understand only from reading articles that one of the premier woodworking schools in the country teaches pins first. Why do they do that? Isn't it easier to square the pins than the tails? All those questions asked I usually mark the pins from the tails in most work.
Jim

For all the (very infrequent) lipped drawers I've made, I've made a drawer box with through dovetails and added a false front. I can often conserve the amount of fine stock used for drawer fronts by using thinner false fronts rather than full thickness fronts. And easier build, good economics and conservation of resources: what's not to like?