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Thread: The Roman Workbench - Tell Me What You Thunk

  1. #1
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    The Roman Workbench - Tell Me What You Thunk

    Steven Newman started a thread on Roman workbenches back in February of this year, but instead of trying to revive an old thread that had spun down, I am making a new one.

    The attraction of being archaic for the sake of being archaic is something I understand, having been involved in flintlock rifles and rendezvous for a long time with my kids, who are all grown up with their own families now. Much of that was frivolous, if educational, but much was practical too. After all, I can make meat with a .54 Roman Nose and a powder horn, and cut a steak with a rifleman's knife. And although the industrial world no longer uses many handtools beyond the hammer and wrench and screwdriver, and never handplanes, time permitting, handtools just do a better job most of the time. But I suspected Mr. Schwarz had allowed his penchant for living archaeology to run amok with his ancient workbench revival. Come on now, really, frescoes? After all, like buggy whips and bloodletting, some old tools and practices fell out of common-use for good reasons.

    But Matt Lau started a thread last week about Japanese workbenches (used sitting on the floor) that got me thinking. I have used this tool for many years, and still do occasionally, but my old knees won't allow it for long anymore. While an ancient tool, it it still in common use in Japan not just because it is traditional, but because it is logical, simple, and economical in so many ways. Anyway, Matt's post had me thinking about them again as I rode the subway, when I saw a picture of Mr. Schwarz sitting on his reproduction Roman bench, and it occurred to me that it might be an effective alternative.

    I have since looked at some Youtube videos as well.

    The point of this post is that I am beginning to suspect Mr.Schwarz's Roman Workbench (RW) might just make a useful substitute for the Japanese workbench. With some improvements and accessories, it might even work almost as well as the standard Western workbench, especially for multi-story apartment dwellers or those with limited space, subject to some alternatives to staked legs. And its possibilities as a field workbench are intriguing.

    Please help me think this through if you are interested.

    BTW, I don't consider the archaic Roubo workbench as illustrated in the original texts to be an efficient alternative to the standard Western workbench, thank you kindly. Please don't go into a description of how you built your Western workbench. "There are other worlds than these."

    I have never used a RW, but I tend to make lists, and the pros/cons I can imagine now are as follows.

    Pros:
    1. RW easier on the knees than Japanese workbench. Maybe even easier than the standard Western workbench (?)
    2.
    For people that work in a garage or other space with a concrete floor, the RW elevates and helps keep the derrier warm and clean compared to Japanese workbench. That's nice.
    3. Cheaper than standard Western workbench (a lot). About equal to the Japanese version.
    4. Double-duty as a bench for seating company at Thanksgiving dinner, or in the mud room. Can't do that with either Western or Japanese workbenches.
    5. More portable and e
    asier to store, carry, relocate and take up the stairs than the standard Western workbench. Moreso IF the staked legs were replaced with removable, but still stable, legs. Hmmm. Need to give this one some more thought.
    6.
    Buttclamp (Pat Pending) or leg clamp easier to use, compared to standard Western workbench. Definitely easier for someone like me with bad knees. And I could keep one foot on the floor to stabilize.
    7. Could be made longer than Japanese workbench while still remaining useful.
    8. If the removable (foldable?) leg situation could be improved, the RW would be very convenient for jobsite use where it could double as sawhorse, workbench, and lunchtable. Maybe even a brief nap? If find this option very interesting.


    Cons:
    1. No vises. Big disadvantage compared to standard Western workbench. Not so big compared to the Japanese workbench.
    2. T
    akes up as much floor space as a taller, more stable Western workbench with vise(s), and a lot more space than a Japanese workbench.
    3. More rock, rattle n' roll compared to both standard Western and Japanese workbenches. My weight might calm this down.
    4. Must bend over much further for planing the edges of boards (big con without a planing beam).
    5.
    Relatively heavy-weight compared to a Japanese workbench.
    6. Still much less portable and more difficult to store away than Japanese workbench (unless the legs could be easily removed).

    I can't see anyway to avoid needing to combine it with a stool to save the back, since the RW is so low, as well as a planing beam to handle longer stuff. On the other hand, if the stool was the right height, and planing stops installed at the end, one could place the stool at the end and use it just like a Japanese workbench. Might need to brace the RW with a stake or something.... Hmmm


    Another thing. When I go to the big woodpile in the sky, I suspect my Western workbenches will all end up on my kid's back porches as potting tables protecting spider eggs from the snow. Sigh . 諸行無常 My Japanese workbench will probably end up stuck behind a door somewhere for a few years before going to the landfill or the fireplace. But if I made the RW such that it would serve as furniture, and carved my name and a date on the underside, they might keep it around for a few generations. I would love to think that great grandkids might use it to learn how to walk, and even chew on its legs along with the dogs someday.

    The onset of senility?

    https://www.mortiseandtenonmag.com/b...le-of-contents
    Last edited by Stanley Covington; 10-19-2017 at 5:23 AM.

  2. #2
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    Stanley it seems to me that you may be resurrecting a very old carpenters tool. People will be making and using them all over the world. Saw horses and a plank I think they were called.
    Jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Pallas View Post
    Stanley it seems to me that you may be resurrecting a very old carpenters tool. People will be making and using them all over the world. Saw horses and a plank I think they were called.
    Jim
    Thanks Jim.

    Ha ha! So true.

    Not sure I actually want to resurrect it, but I suspect it might be a little better, ergo the question.

    So should I put a mark in the column titled "Solution looking for a problem?"

    Stan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley Covington View Post
    Thanks Jim.

    Ha ha! So true.

    Not sure I actually want to resurrect it, but I suspect it might be a little better, ergo the question.

    So should I put a mark in the column titled "Solution looking for a problem?"

    Stan
    It's the senility thing starting Stanley. I find it occurring more often now. I recently made a project and stood back to take a look at my handy work. When i did so what immediately came to mind was, " that looks an awful lot like an orange crate". I quickly disassembled the evidence. Don't need anyone seeing that.
    Jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Pallas View Post
    It's the senility thing starting Stanley. I find it occurring more often now. I recently made a project and stood back to take a look at my handy work. When i did so what immediately came to mind was, " that looks an awful lot like an orange crate". I quickly disassembled the evidence. Don't need anyone seeing that.
    Jim
    Sound policy, sound policy indeed.

    I am a firm believer in immediately disposing of inconvenient evidence of foolishness. But instead of doing it less, I find myself doing it more and more. Sigh....

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    Stan,

    I think the Japanese workbench is more adaptable. Set it on tall horses and I can plane comfortably. Set it on low horses and I can chop comfortably or set it on the floor for the same. When I'm done I can just lean it against a wall.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    Stan,

    I think the Japanese workbench is more adaptable. Set it on tall horses and I can plane comfortably. Set it on low horses and I can chop comfortably or set it on the floor for the same. When I'm done I can just lean it against a wall.
    Let's see, two orange crates, one orange crate or no orange crates. I think I have the design down. Now if I could just apply that golden square thingy we are good to go.
    Jim

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    As a child I frequented a museum in Reading (UK) with a wonderful display of a Roman Carpenter's bench & tools. Many times I stared at that display and crude tools and marvelled at how much the roman's achieved. Then I saw a Scandinavian bench and marvelled at how blond & beautiful their women were and moved on .
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    Stan,

    I think the Japanese workbench is more adaptable. Set it on tall horses and I can plane comfortably. Set it on low horses and I can chop comfortably or set it on the floor for the same. When I'm done I can just lean it against a wall.
    Thanks for the insight Brian.

    While there are plenty of exceptions, and one could certainly make one any length desired, Japanese workbenches tend to be short compared to Western workbenches, as you know. After all, there is only so far one can reach with a plane or chisel when sitting. And since they sit on the floor with a very low center of gravity, and are braced against the user, they don't need large mass to resist back/forth/left/right forces. So if you put it on sawhorses, which are not all that stable, movement can be a problem. At least that is my experience. One workaround, of course, is to brace the sawhorses or workbench against a wall or with stakes.

    My thought with the Roman workbench is that I can compensate for the high center of gravity by stabilizing it with my own weight by sitting on it. Of course, this means I would need to make it longer than a typical Japanese workbench, but I don't think that is necessarily a negative. Remember, the problem is bad knees.

    Does this make sense?

    I don't actually plan to make one now, since I already have a nice very heavy Western workbench made of Keruing with a battleship of a leg vise, and I don't have space for nor need another workbench in Japan. Besides the wood would cost a fortune over here. Its just an idea I am developing for the future.

    Stan

  10. #10
    We call this kind of bench a low bench or a mortising bench. I was taught to mortise sitting on the piece to be mortised. I think such a bench is most useful when used in conjunction with a workbench. Here is an illustration of a a low bench in Hulot (1775). Also from Hulot, an illustration showing a turner shop which has lathes, workbench, low bench and stump. The hatchet and stump are the most common accessories in old turner illustrations.
    hulot low bench.jpeg hulot lathe stock prep.jpeg

    I posted a picture of the Pompeii fresco on another forum a few months before Schwarz discovered it. I was trying to show that even Roman woodworkers knew how to hold a chisel by the handle. I never thought that this was the only kind of bench Romans used. We don't have a lot of material like this, but I suspect that they used higher and larger benches for planing. They were not dumb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    We call this kind of bench a low bench or a mortising bench. I was taught to mortise sitting on the piece to be mortised. I think such a bench is most useful when used in conjunction with a workbench. Here is an illustration of a a low bench in Hulot (1775). Also from Hulot, an illustration showing a turner shop which has lathes, workbench, low bench and stump. The hatchet and stump are the most common accessories in old turner illustrations.
    hulot low bench.jpeg hulot lathe stock prep.jpeg

    I posted a picture of the Pompeii fresco on another forum a few months before Schwarz discovered it. I was trying to show that even Roman woodworkers knew how to hold a chisel by the handle. I never thought that this was the only kind of bench Romans used. We don't have a lot of material like this, but I suspect that they used higher and larger benches for planing. They were not dumb.
    Thank you Warren. Very helpful.

    It makes sense there would have been a variety of workbenches used in antiquity.

    Do they work well for planing shorter pieces?

    Stan

  12. #12
    If you want removable legs for storage, I have one word for you, Stan: sliding dovetails!

    A pair of trestles affixed to the top with sliding dovetails would give decent service; being low, they may be effective without a stretcher, but one could be added with not too much complexity for added stability if needed. Solves a couple of your "cons."
    Fair winds and following seas,
    Jim Waldron

  13. #13
    In the Stollentruhe video ( 1955 youtu.be/3V0gQ9M45G8 ) all the work is done with nothing higher than a shaving horse and a few logs. Using maybe 7 tools, no plane. It's nevertheless possible that he left his workshop to give more light to the film crew.

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    I have to agree with James. Having worked from sawhorses and planks some tasks are very easy to do on that set up. I'm sure a book on the topic could be interesting, easy to try it out, you only require the aforementioned horses & planks.

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    Damien, thanks for posting the 1955 youtube. After watching the video I swiveled around in my chair to look at my shop with a multitude of planes, saws, chisels, squares, marking gages, bench, clamps, vises, etc. etc. etc. and thought, "wow, what a overconsumption of stuff"........ But only for a little while
    Thanks again,
    Chet

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