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Thread: Problems with 40 degree frog on Veritas Custom Plane

  1. #1

    Problems with 40 degree frog on Veritas Custom Plane

    I had my first contact with Veritas Custom Plane today, and I have problems fixing 40 degree frog to the body. I purchased preconfigured No4, and additional 40 and 55 frogs. Everything is OK with 45 and 55 frogs, not a single issue, but with 40 degree frog screws are bottoming up before it is fixed. I measured length of the screws protruding from the bottom of the frog, and on both 45 and 55 there is 0.250" protrusion, but on 40, a whole 0.375" is protruding through the bottom.

    I will try to resolve issue tomorrow with metric 5mm washers, but it is not ideal solution. Other option is to order a shorter low head #10-32 from USA, but it is not either cheap, or fast solution.

    Is Veritas selling 40 degree frogs with different set of screws, which I am missing from the box, or I have issue with awkward plane?

    Any ideas? Sending it back to distributor is also not an option, as I will pay custom fees again.

  2. #2
    IMHO you should not have to modify anything from Veritas to make it work.

  3. #3
    It will be nice if it works from the beginning. Especially for the people paying double US price for the tools, without the possibility to return it to the maker. Excellent customer service in US doesn't help people from other sides of the world, it will be better if there is a good QC, or someone put an effort to make it small problem proof.

    Only good solution I see so far is to order shorter (3/8 instead of original 1/2" long) low head 10-32 screws from USA. Another few weeks, and additional 20-30 USD for make things working.

    Anyway, I send e-mail to Veritas, will post reply

  4. #4
    Looks like a different set of screws is needed for the thinner frog: http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/pag...82,72240,72113

    Did you look through the box before you threw away any packing material? They may have also forgotten to include the screws.

    Anyway, it is easy for them to ship you the missing screws.

    Simon

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Perth, Australia
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    9,467
    I have used a 40 degree frog in my #7 from the outset. At the time of getting it I also had a 50 degree frog. Similarly, I purchased a 42 degree frog to go with the #4 with a 50 degree frog. In both cases, only the single set of screws was used. It has never been a consideration that there might be a second set needed for a different frog body.

    Personally (speaking for myself), I go down the route of "fix it myself if it can be done simply" before I even think of calling in someone else. In you situation, I would let Lee Valley know first - if it does not work, then it is their responsibility to sort it out (which we know they will do, and pronto). Myself, I would grind the screw down a little at a time until it was the ideal length.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  6. #6
    Of all the Veritas plane products I have got from LV, none (zero) would require me as a customer to do some shop work to make it work (honing edges aside). I am sure Lee Valley will have a satisfactory response other than one that requires a customer to make the screws a little shorter.

    Simon

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogdan Ristivojevic View Post
    It will be nice if it works from the beginning. Especially for the people paying double US price for the tools, without the possibility to return it to the maker. Excellent customer service in US doesn't help people from other sides of the world, it will be better if there is a good QC, or someone put an effort to make it small problem proof.

    Only good solution I see so far is to order shorter (3/8 instead of original 1/2" long) low head 10-32 screws from USA. Another few weeks, and additional 20-30 USD for make things working.

    Anyway, I send e-mail to Veritas, will post reply
    Howdy Bogdan and welcome to the Creek.

    Your e-mail should get the ball rolling. Until then if you do want to use the 40º frog the washers under the head of the screws will work if it doesn't cause the screw heads to interfere with the blade.

    One of the problems of QC is it is almost impossible to check over every component and every tapped hole for compliance.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    SF Baaaah Area
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    39
    Bogdan, for sure, LV's products and customer service are tops, so I suggest you call them before doing anything else and explain the situation and they will make it right and very quickly too. Another thought is that there may be some sharf (the residual milling metal particles) in the threads that is causing things to seem like they are bottoming out, also some lubricant on the threads will help too.

    I own numerous products from Lee Valley and they are amongst the finest North American products to be had, and their customer service is on par with the products, so please don't get too upset yet, they will make it right. I hope it is something simple and solvable by you.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dublin, CA
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    4,119
    Like Derek I have 40 and 42 deg frogs for my LV Custom planes. Here are some measurements that might help you debug the problem:

    The frog screws for my custom #4 (didn't check any of the others) are 15/32" long, measured from the bottom of the head to the tip.

    When the screw is fully inserted into the 40 deg frog it extends 3/8" beyond the bottom of counterbore that surrounds the screw hole (9/32" below the bottom face of the frog).

    The screw holes in the plane sole measure 13/32" deep relative to the surrounding boss that fits into the counterbore on the frog, so there appears to be 1/32" of clearance in depth.

    It sounds like one or both of two things may be happening here:

    1. You stated that your screws are 1/2". If that's accurate then they're 1/32" longer than mine, and that would use up all of the depth tolerance in the frog mounting holes. Can you check and confirm that they are indeed exactly 1/2"?

    2. If your screws are the correct length and your extension truly is exactly 3/8" from the bottom of the counterbore, then the other possibility is that the threading is compromised as Bradley suggested. You might want to first check the hole depth and confirm that it's 13/32", and then see if you can insert the screw all the way to the depth you measured. For that matter these holes are shallow enough that you can inspect the threading under magnification without too much difficulty.

    I almost hate to suggest it, but these soles are iron, so if you were really desperate you could probably improvise a flat-bottomed tap by notching the threads of a sufficiently hard screw and use it to chase the threads. You shouldn't have to do that with a new tool from a vendor like LV, but it's feasible.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 10-22-2017 at 1:58 AM.

  10. #10
    Patrick, thanks.

    1. I managed to mount frog properly by using 1/32 (0.8 mm ) thick washer, M4 metric size, rebored to 5mm. M5 washer was too large to fit into countersink. So, 1/32 shorter screws will resolve the problem. Even less thick washer might do.

    2. I also remeasured screws. Threaded part on both of them is exactly 31/64 " long.

    3. I inspected holes, chased both treads with bent needle, and don't see any obstruction till the end of thread. There were some swarf on the bottom of both holes, I cleaned it, and flushed them with alcohol. It didn't help. I also ground off carefully rolled edge on bottom of one screw, without shortening threaded part, to check if combination of rolled burr and sawrf were causing problem. No luck with that either.

    From everything above, it looks like internal thread on the plane body is just bit too short. I will see reply from Veritas.

    I hate to modify plane body, and will look for the solution without modifying it. Current patch with washers will work until I get 7/16" low head socket screws, which should resolve the issue if Veritas doesn't come up with workable solution. Shipping plane back and forth from Europe to US is no go, as shipping costs will be more than price of plane body, and anyway, it is working, except with 40 degree frog.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Perth, Australia
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    2. I also remeasured screws. Threaded part on both of them is exactly 31/64 " long.

    ...
    I also ground off carefully rolled edge on bottom of one screw, without shortening threaded part, to check if combination of rolled burr and sawrf were causing problem.

    .... From everything above, it looks like internal thread on the plane body is just bit too short.
    Do not mess with the plane body! Just take a tiny bit more off the screw. You have not removed enough. If you bugger it up I am sure that LV will still supply new screws.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Last edited by Derek Cohen; 10-22-2017 at 11:25 AM.

  12. #12
    Hi Bogdan,

    Sorry for the problem...we’ll get it sorted out. Have copied both R&D and production folks...and will have an answer for you Monday.

    Cheers,

    Rob Lee

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dublin, CA
    Posts
    4,119
    Quote Originally Posted by Bogdan Ristivojevic View Post
    From everything above, it looks like internal thread on the plane body is just bit too short. I will see reply from Veritas.
    Out of curiosity, how deep are the holes in your body? As noted above I measured 13/32" from the top surface of the boss.

  14. #14
    Stop fettling.... Veritas has great customer service. I don't fettle with my Veritas gear. Not worth the hassle.

  15. #15
    Rob,

    Thanks.

    I wouldn't fettle if I live in USA. Shipping to Veritas will be simple solution.

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