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Thread: Sapstain on holly

  1. #1

    Sapstain on holly

    So, we grabbed a couple holly logs as a target of opportunity. No chance to wait until cooler weather. It was get 'em or leave 'em.

    So I cut some turning blanks and they looked okay. On the outside, at least. Despite having a fan on them and being subjected to indoor humdity (~50% at all times), after a week they had sapstain through them entirely.

    We also cut some 1" boards. We neglected to re-cut the ends (since they weren't cracked and were anchorsealed) and temporarily stacked the boards by leaning them against a tree. There was a 6" band of sapstain 1/4" deep the next day where the board ends were touching the boards.

    So I decided to test some various chemicals I had on hand to see how they worked. After a day here's what I've found--

    Chlorine bleach in water at about 1 to 5 seemed to spread the stain faster.

    Propiconazole (a popular fungicide) seemed to do nothing.

    Physan 20 (algaecide/fungicide) turned the wood a little green on the surface, and seemed to repel the fungus initially -- but had no lasting protection, as the test piece got fungus on it from handling (see picture!).

    Boracare (at $20/gallon mixed at the lowest rate!) seemed to hold it off for a day -- maybe.

    Baking soda, which is reputed to fight sapstain, made it grow faster. Way faster. The test piece was completely green within six hours, 1/8 deep at least.

    Next thing I'm going to try is timbor, just because it's cheaper.

    Cultural control seems to work somewhat (wash the piece, put it outside by itself where it doesn't get exposed heavily to spores while it's wet). It's impractical and I can't find anything to wash the pieces with other than water, and it doesn't scale well.

    Any ideas as to a chemical biocide for sapstain on holly?

    IMG_20171023_215049861_HDR.jpg

  2. #2
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    I hope you figure it out! Pure white holly is the holy grail for me - most has turned ugly quickly. The best I've processed was cut in the dead of winter - some of us imagine the cold is a factor. (I am carefully guarding the beautiful white holly blanks from that winter log!)

    If cold is in fact a factor, perhaps immediate refrigeration or freezing is a non-chemical solution. I've wondered if freezing will kill existing fungi and prevent spread or if they will just hibernate until warmed. The winter holly I mentioned stayed white even though it was brought inside for processing while green. Mostly likely not a factor, but another difference between that holly and others I've cut was the size - the log was 16-18" in diameter while I haven't had one over maybe 8-10" since.

    I too tried bleach and some other things unsuccessfully. One gentleman told me he doesn't worry about it but just uses the two-part wood bleach on holly after it is turned. I've been told some ebonize the green and grey wood.

    JKJ

  3. #3
    Supposedly soaking prevents the fungus from growing. I guess I could have kept the blanks in a 55-gallon drum full of water until January. Okay, not really.

    Someone suggested doing that and boiling the blanks to kill the fungus. I don't know how that would work.

    Supposedly also the sapstain won't grow at high temperatures (100+) but that would discolor the wood chemically, I think. Plus I don't have a kiln with heat. Maybe I should build one, I guess.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Bouis View Post
    Supposedly soaking prevents the fungus from growing. I guess I could have kept the blanks in a 55-gallon drum full of water until January. Okay, not really.
    Someone suggested doing that and boiling the blanks to kill the fungus. I don't know how that would work.
    Supposedly also the sapstain won't grow at high temperatures (100+) but that would discolor the wood chemically, I think. Plus I don't have a kiln with heat. Maybe I should build one, I guess.
    "Ponding" the logs/log sections works well in general but I haven't read about using it specifically with holly.

    You have to be very careful to keep the moisture correct when heating with a kiln. Professor Gene Wengert says you can find info on Drying Hardwood Lumber on the Wood Web. Maybe try an experiment with boiling, a time-proven method usually used for preventing cracks in hard-to-dry turning blanks and roughed-out bowls.
    http://www.woodturningvideosplus.com...reen-wood.html

    Also, in my experience holly can be hard to dry without severely warping, whether kiln or air-dried. Much depends on how it is cut. Perfectly quartersawn holly dries well but cut it at an angle to the pith and it twists and shouts. I should take a photo of an example from my drying shelf! Turning squares are easier than boards since they are almost always "quartersawn" in one direction! Holly can also crack like crazy.

    I just found this from Gene Wengert about holly:
    Holly wood is prized for its white color. It loses this color quickly if not dried fast (fungal and chemical stains). Proper drying is discussed in Drying Hardwood Lumber. Many operations can not dry this wood properly, so you might be unhappy....
    Holly is cut in cold weather because both the fungal and chemical staining are very slow at wintertime temperatures. Holly is typically dried as all hardwoods are... stickering, good air flow, etc. ... Use weights on top and accurate 12" stickering.


    I thought more about chemical treatment last night. I suspect no chemicals will work once the holly is exposed to air since if the discoloration is caused by fungus it has already started growing below the surface where chemicals can't possibly reach. When I get down to my shop I'll try to look in my book by the worlds leading expert on fungal growth and see if she mentions holly and whether fungi are responsible for the discoloration. I suspect it is since from experience trying to spalt holly like you can easily do with maple can lead to rapid severe discoloration and no black zone lines, kind of like the grey and green stain we see but on steroids. However, I see Wengert also mentions chemical staining. Maybe a holly expert will see this an check in.

    JKJ

  5. #5
    I am 99.9% sure the fungus isn't inside the wood before it's cut. It gets onto the surface -- it's probably permeating the air and dust in my shop right now -- and then sinks in. I really feel like if I can get over the hump of the first week, and get the surface dry enough that the fungus can't penetrate it, then it will dry well enough.

    We've cut it before, a while back. We weren't so careful back then, but we actually got better results (sometimes) by cutting the logs into shorts and not anchorsealing the ends and letting them sit for weeks before cutting them. We cut away the stained areas and got fairly white wood left over. My guess is that the yet-unstained wood had dried some before it was cut, leaving its surface less susceptible to fungus.

    One other thing I am doing now is doing the final cutting on the table saw. It's a PITA but a clean surface finish probably helps prevent the fungus from penetrating.

    Unfortunately it rarely gets all that cold here, and I can't always time when I get trees like I'd like. But I do have several more hollys in the pipeline and I want to get them right. I guess what I'm going to do is wait to cut them until there's a week of really cold, dry weather forecasted. I'll report back if I figure something out that works.

  6. #6
    From googling it, here are the active ingredients in commercial (like, really commercial; not sold to the public as far as I can tell) sapstain formulations:

    sapstain.jpg

    http://www.fwrc.msstate.edu/pubs/antisapstain.pdf

    Propiconazole is a popular lawn fungicide -- one I already tried, though the stuff I had was old. So maybe I should try a higher concentration or a fresh bottle, though from what I've read it's not very effective against sapstain (?).

    Chlorothalonil is a popular garden fungicide, but I get the impression that it's not the anti-sapstain ingredient. I think it and Propiconazole might actually be intended to control mold rather than sapstain.

    The rest of them seem to be hard to get in other products. But I haven't done that much searching.

  7. #7
    Ah! You can get 3-iodo blah blah IPBC as a paint additive for mold control.

    https://www.amazon.com/Trimaco-10152...005G8UXYY?th=1

    Didecyl dimethyl ammonium chloride is available in small amounts in various disinfectants. Apparently it's used in freakishly high concentrations for sapstain such that even using hospital disinfectants undiluted wouldn't have the same effect. But maybe it doesn't have to for a week's worth of protection. I can't find anyone in the US selling it concentrated but you can it in the UK cheap. You can also get a small bottle of 80% with boracare "with mold care" but that's $100.

    http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/bo...re-p-1265.html

  8. #8
    Didecyl dimethyl ammonium chloride is available in 50% concentration in certain pool algaecides.

    https://www.amazon.com/Halt-50-Algaecide-1-Quart/dp/B00BGG9FN0

  9. #9
    I can say for sure that boracare and physan 20 don't work.

    Amusingly the boracare pieces didn't seem to have much fungus on them on three sides. I didn't note which side was which (because it hadn't occurred to me), but I'd bet it was the north side that had the deep fungus growth. They were left out in the sun -- and sun might be the best thing you can do for them.

    The weather here has been cool and dry, 40s in the night and 60s-70s during the day. Not January temperatures but pretty close.

  10. #10
    So I tried every one of those chemicals and none of them worked at all.

  11. #11
    This whole thing makes me want to cry. I have two nice holly logs in my trailer that are just about ready to start degrading. And I have no idea what to do with them. Cut the blanks and put them in a 55-gallon drum of water until the weather improves? Buy another refrigerator or a chest freezer and keep them in that?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Bouis View Post
    This whole thing makes me want to cry. I have two nice holly logs in my trailer that are just about ready to start degrading. And I have no idea what to do with them. Cut the blanks and put them in a 55-gallon drum of water until the weather improves? Buy another refrigerator or a chest freezer and keep them in that?
    I'd probably cut into blanks, cover with plastic wrap, and try the freezer method. Maybe find a big old chest freezer on Craigslist? Be the first on your block with a "cool" wood freezer! (ha)

    Better yet, in the interest of science: put some of them in a freezer (some wrapped, some not), pond some, cook a piece in the microwave, boil a piece. And leave a bit out for a control. I'm guessing nothing will reverse the stain but maybe you can see if any of these stop it from spreading further.

    You'll hate this. This morning I found a small tub of holly I forgot I had, hiding on a low shelf - I thought it was another tub of bradford pear till I looked inside. Every piece was white and at EMC. It was some of that I mentioned that I had cut long ago in the winter if that had anything to do with it.

    JKJ

  13. #13
    What about something like concrobium or equivalent.

  14. #14
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    what causes the stain

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    What about something like concrobium or equivalent.
    I had to google that!

    I'm certainly no expert but I suspect the problem with any chemical is whatever makes the stain is already in the wood and the chemical can't penetrate past the surface to reach the staining agent. It has never been clear to me exactly what causes the staining - some say from fungus, some from minerals. (Perhaps it is a combination of factors - a mineral stain triggered by fungus.) It is also not clear how this gets into the wood.

    If it is a fungus is one spore touching a freshly cut log end enough to propagate and stain the entire log? If so, any chemical treatment might have to be applied to a fresh cut within seconds.

    Are the fungus or minerals already distributed through the wood at the time it is cut, perhaps distributed in the sapwood, pulled from the ground along with water?, from sugars pumped to the cells from the leaves? If so, I can't imagine anything can be done to stop or reverse the staining. Perhaps this is the reason for advice from the experts to cut holly in the winter when the sap is "down". In that case chemicals treatment, boiling, ponding, freezing, etc. would be a good experiments but might not result in any white wood.

    I do have one holly that needs to be removed. If I can remember, I'll try cut it in a few months in the middle of the winter. To bad I don't have two growing side-by-side and cut the second one some months later.

    JKJ

  15. #15
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    I have no idea if this stuff will work but check into oxalic acid (aka) wood bleach. Once I used it to prep some furniture on the concrete driveway man did it ever clean that driveway and did a good job lighting the wood also. I think it would kill what ever would try to live on the wood. But it is just a wild guess.

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