Combination Plane and Lee Valley Tuition

[Simon MacGowen]

That was very strange for me to read such negative view on this plane... I'm newbie myself but I did not dare to start my first cut using this plane with fully extended fence.

First I tried it as a plow, making groove on an edge. Then I cut corresponding tong. And I like it more for this than small plow plane with wide blade conversion kit because of: fence position micro adjustment; and because it is bigger and both skates are bigger.

I also tried to make triple reed using one bead iron in three stages. Thanks to micro adjustment fence again, it was easy to catch the same spacing between beads. This is my learning board:



(This is European steamed beech, in reality it is more red than yellow.)

I did notice that nickers and corresponding set screws have to be watched over. Either nicker can stick out and dig into the wood, or set screw on the other side will dig instead. Probably would remove them when not in use, as suggested by Dear Sirs above.

Perhaps this is how the tuition should have been formatted and executed?

Suggested remedy to Veritas: Arrange a tutor, this time, to go to William's place and conduct another lesson in person, this time based on some tested/rehearsed methodology or practice runs beforehand. Key word: Preparation.

Simon

[John Gornall]

Not necessarily a lot of tool expertise at Lee Valley stores. Went in last week to look at shooting plane - none on display. Asked at counter and a guy went and got one - box had never been opened. Took it out and employees came running - they hadn't seen it before. Think most sales of tools are online.

[Simon MacGowen]

Not necessarily a lot of tool expertise at Lee Valley stores. Went in last week to look at shooting plane - none on display. Asked at counter and a guy went and got one - box had never been opened. Took it out and employees came running - they hadn't seen it before. Think most sales of tools are online.

No idea about their hand tool store vs online sales ratio. Lee Valley sells so many products that it should not be a surprise that not everyone working there knows about everything or every tool. But I would have no doubt that every one of their stores has people with tool expertise on their payroll. Many woodworking places I have visited over the years are staffed by people of varying knowledge and experience. I personally saw a router sales person showing to a potential customer what was a climb cut as the regular way of routing!

However, when the tutorial session was arranged for a particular customer, there was no excuse (save staff absence due to emergency) that the session had been conducted in a seemingly ill-prepared setting and manner.

Simon

[James Pallas]

William doesn't need all the blame stuff. He needs some help to get going. I don't have the plane. I do use a 45 regularly. I can do the cut he is showing with a 45. It has to be a have to for me to do it. I wish one of you that has the plane would try it to see, especially those with combo experience. Andrey looks as if he is getting it to work even tho he says he is a newbie. Maybe you can give it a try Andrey to give William a hand.
Jim

[Patrick Chase]

William doesn't need all the blame stuff. He needs some help to get going. I don't have the plane. I do use a 45 regularly. I can do the cut he is showing with a 45. It has to be a have to for me to do it. I wish one of you that has the plane would try it to see, especially those with combo experience. Andrey looks as if he is getting it to work even tho he says he is a newbie. Maybe you can give it a try Andrey to give William a hand.
Jim

A bunch of us have already given William advice on how to fix his issues on both this thread and the other one. The issues he's described are part of the routine learning curve for this sort of plane IMO, and the advice given so far should ultimately (with practice) be enough to overcome them.

At this point IMO he needs to decide if he's willing to invest the time to learn such a complicated tool, and if so go off and practice, practice, and practice some more. There is no free lunch, and talk can only get you so far.

[Jim Koepke]

This seems like there wasn't a plan of action put in place before William showed up at the LV store.

If it were my job to set this up, a person would have taken the original sales order and duplicated the purchase. Then a person would have been set up to use and become familiar with that plane and the various components William ordered.

When he came into the store with his plane, it would have been set aside and all tutoring would have been done with the store plane. If that worked, there would be an exchange of old for new and the story would be done.

The blade needs to protrude a bit beyond the skates. This cuts the track slightly wider than the skates and prevents heating and binding. If the blade isn't cutting a hair outside of the skate, the skate will tend to push the whole plane to the side. If the opposite side is cutting properly this can make the plane seem to wander toward the side that is cutting and it will spoil the bead or slot being made.

A problem with one of my Stanley #45s is a slightly bowed skate. This does cause binding in a cut and heating of the skate from friction.

Light cuts are key to working in tough grain. If all is going well, then the depth of cut can be increased. If one must go against the grain, it might be better to set the plane up for left hand use:

Stanley #45 Left Handed.jpg

The fence needs to 'drop' along with the depth of the cut or the plane will not stay level in the cut.

Any pressure on the plane in front of the blade can cause the blade to dig in to the top of a bead being cut.

If the skates are just a hair out of true parallel to each other it can cause drifting and binding.

If a cam rest is used it needs to be able to adjust between each cut or it will not keep the plane level. If one makes their own, it needs to be adjustable. The only exception to this is if one is keeping the plane at the same level and adjusting the blade between cuts. This is not a standard method of using a combination plane but is alluded to in the Stanley #55 instructions when guiding on a corner with both fences. The cam rest isn't used in the described procedure.

There is a neat trick to help keep the plane square to the work. My recollection is this was something posted on Youtube by a person who went by the name of Alf. It uses a dowel with something on top to keep from poking the user in the eye:

Holding & Vertical Flag.jpg

There are likely many more little tips that make a big difference not listed above. I am kind of worn out after driving a U-Haul truck from California. 15 hours on the I-5. The best part was a burger in Dunsmire, CA at a place called YAKS. (Yes Another Koffee Shop) It is the only Koffee Shop to my knowledge with 20 craft beers on tap.

http://www.yaks.com/

It was a darned good burger.

jtk

[Simon MacGowen]

This seems like there wasn't a plan of action put in place before William showed up at the LV store.

If it were my job to set this up, a person would have taken the original sales order and duplicated the purchase. Then a person would have been set up to use and become familiar with that plane and the various components William ordered.

When he came into the store with his plane, it would have been set aside and all tutoring would have been done with the store plane. If that worked, there would be an exchange of old for new and the story would be done.

The blade needs to protrude a bit beyond the skates. This cuts the track slightly wider than the skates and prevents heating and binding. If the blade isn't cutting a hair outside of the skate, the skate will tend to push the whole plane to the side. If the opposite side is cutting properly this can make the plane seem to wander toward the side that is cutting and it will spoil the bead or slot being made.

A problem with one of my Stanley #45s is a slightly bowed skate. This does cause binding in a cut and heating of the skate from friction.

Light cuts are key to working in tough grain. If all is going well, then the depth of cut can be increased. If one must go against the grain, it might be better to set the plane up for left hand use:

Stanley #45 Left Handed.jpg

The fence needs to 'drop' along with the depth of the cut or the plane will not stay level in the cut.

Any pressure on the plane in front of the blade can cause the blade to dig in to the top of a bead being cut.

If the skates are just a hair out of true parallel to each other it can cause drifting and binding.

If a cam rest is used it needs to be able to adjust between each cut or it will not keep the plane level. If one makes their own, it needs to be adjustable. The only exception to this is if one is keeping the plane at the same level and adjusting the blade between cuts. This is not a standard method of using a combination plane but is alluded to in the Stanley #55 instructions when guiding on a corner with both fences. The cam rest isn't used in the described procedure.

There is a neat trick to help keep the plane square to the work. My recollection is this was something posted on Youtube by a person who went by the name of Alf. It uses a dowel with something on top to keep from poking the user in the eye:

Holding & Vertical Flag.jpg

There are likely many more little tips that make a big difference not listed above. I am kind of worn out after driving a U-Haul truck from California. 15 hours on the I-5. The best part was a burger in Dunsmire, CA at a place called YAKS. (Yes Another Koffee Shop) It is the only Koffee Shop to my knowledge with 20 craft beers on tap.

http://www.yaks.com/

It was a darned good burger.

jtk

Finally, someone who does not talk like a self-appointed sales rep.! And I am 101% sure a training along the above line -- properly prepared ahead -- doesn't need four hours to go through -- even for a newbie.

Simon

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

William doesn't need all the blame stuff. He needs some help to get going. I don't have the plane. I do use a 45 regularly. I can do the cut he is showing with a 45. It has to be a have to for me to do it. I wish one of you that has the plane would try it to see, especially those with combo experience. Andrey looks as if he is getting it to work even tho he says he is a newbie. Maybe you can give it a try Andrey to give William a hand.
Jim

Yes, sure. Things that helped me to get started with combo plane listed below. Plus I started simple, which I already stressed... too much? Only because nobody else did enough

* There was a video of The English Woodworker about fenced plane (on example of moving fillister plane, aka Veritas Skew Rabbet Plane) - http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/...illister-plane.
* Reading manual a few times while commuting and thus away from workshop.
* Planing 8 grooves and tongs, and 5 rabbets using Veritas Small Plow Plane and Skew Rabbet Plane.
* Taking course on sharpening carving gauges helped to hone beading blade (it came with a wire along cutting edge, aka burr).

My first grooves were not perfect at first. Beading came alright first time (3/16 beading blade). I used beech wood. With Skew Rabbet Plane I have more difficulty than with Combo and Plow still...

[Stewie Simpson]

Thanks Stewie, the pine is easy to work with, the oak a bit harder. By the time he cuts the window sash I can empathise with the difficulty.
Rather subjectively the Stanley 45 appears to have more 'heft'. Mass in a plane is usually a good thing.
The lessons: light cut, maximal fence registration, balance, balance, balance.

Hi William; its possible you may have missed the point on why I posted that video. Can I suggest you view that video again with the sound turned on, and note from 1min18sec that in this alternate approach the planes sliding fence was not used to guide the cut of the face bead.

regards Stewie;

[Hasin Haroon]

Simon, if Veritas agrees to send a tutor to William's place, good for them, but that is going well beyond what I think can be expected of a tool manufacturer. I don't think they owe him more than they already did (albeit the tutor did not seem to be an expert himself), especially considering there are a lot of us who purchased and used this plane, and found it to perform well enough to justify it's price. Tool manufacturers can't be expected to tutor every customer on technique. From William's comments on (being unable to) balancing the fence, it is quite clear the main issue is one of technique rather than plane performance. At most maybe the training at the store could be rearranged to have someone familiar with the tool teach him how to use it.

[William Fretwell]

Thought it might be time for a little humor James. Hate to see everyone all worked up. Life is too short.

My only substantive advice (not an expert, but have used my Sargent 1080 a fair amount for grooving and beading): a combination plane needs three things to work, (1) sharp cutters, (2) light cuts, (3) straight grain. Starting at the end of the cut and working back helps an awful lot too.

And at the end of the day, some boards just don’t want to be beaded.

Thanks Nicholas, yes I'm learning!

[Simon MacGowen]

Simon, if Veritas agrees to send a tutor to William's place, good for them, but that is going well beyond what I think can be expected of a tool manufacturer. I don't think they owe him more than they already did (albeit the tutor did not seem to be an expert himself), especially considering there are a lot of us who purchased and used this plane, and found it to perform well enough to justify it's price. Tool manufacturers can't be expected to tutor every customer on technique. From William's comments on (being unable to) balancing the fence, it is quite clear the main issue is one of technique rather than plane performance. At most maybe the training at the store could be rearranged to have someone familiar with the tool teach him how to use it.

You are right that no manufacturers, Veritas in this case, owe any customers the obligation of providing a hands-on lesson when a tool is purchased, unless the training is included as part of the sales.People pay to attend the Festool training, even though the tools are priced on the high end.

BUT. if a vendor agreed to provide a tutorial -- out of good will or any reason -- and screwed it up, the expectation and the story would be different.

The point here wasn't about the plane or William's ability to balance or not, but WHY a great plane, in William's hands, could not perform even after four hours of ONE-TO-ONE training. Some seemed to point the finger at the trainee as the source of the problem, but as someone who once had been a panel advisor in corporate training, I could tell you that 99% of failure in training was (budget aside) the fault of the program developer and deliver-er; not the trainees or students.

My suggestion was that since the first session of four hours of training was ineffective, as a gesture of (further?) goodwill, William should not be asked to make another trip to the store.

Simon

[Patrick Chase]

Finally, someone who does not talk like a self-appointed sales rep.! And I am 101% sure a training along the above line -- properly prepared ahead -- doesn't need four hours to go through -- even for a newbie.

Simon

OK, we've already established that William needs to make the following technical adjustments to mitigate just the issues he has described (and bear in mind that there are usually more layers to the onion):

1. Focus on shifting pressure from toe to heel through the cut to prevent "diving" as the toe goes off the edge of the workpiece. Note that with a combo you only have one hand on the main skate, so this isn't a simple matter of shifting pressure from one hand to the other as on a bench plane.
2. Focus on applying only forward pressure from the tote and only sideways pressure from the fence, to avoid twisting
3. Focus on keeping the fence at a constant height during each cut (though different from cut to cut obviously) to avoid rolling.

Note that these are not setup issues that can be addressed piecemeal - these are technical elements that have to be executed correctly *at the same time*. If you've ever actually tried to teach somebody these sorts of skills (as opposed to theorizing about it) then you would know that most humans are unable to pay attention to more than one such element at a time, and I know quite a few who can't even manage that. The others have to come from trained muscle memory, and you don't acquire that in "an hour" or even four.

I'm sure you could teach somebody to do something in an hour, but only a physical prodigy (the sort of person who annoyingly excels at every sport they try) could pick up everything that William needs that quickly. It doesn't help anybody else to create ridiculous expectations like that.

This is what I was driving at in the other thread when I said that bringing a combo plane to market carries a degree of inherent reputational risk for any maker. If I were LV I wouldn't have said anything about any "nine-year-old girl" in the newsletter, though. It's worded in a way that seems to play off of a problematic gender stereotype around tool aptitude (how about "nine-year-old child" instead, Rob?), and I also think that it creates an unrealistic expectation for ease of use.

[Stewie Simpson]

Can I suggest the manufacture could have made that learning curb a little easier by not designing a hand plane with so many adjustment points. 17 in total.

[steven c newman]

Mine isn't much better..
IMG_2352 (640x480).jpg
Tends to fill up with these things, too...
IMG_2355 (640x480).jpg