Combination Plane and Lee Valley Tuition

[Patrick Chase]

I do not recommend using the thumb to support the fence. I mentioned that it was the palm that is placed against the fence. This pushes the fence against the work piece and/or bench. Here is an old photo from my original review of the Small Plow ...

I think what he's referring to is holding the fence with your thumb over the top, such that it rests against the workpiece and acts as a sort of "fence depth gauge". I do that with my fenced planes sometimes.

[Simon MacGowen]

. I agree, it would have been better to have someone who knew how to use these planes to highlight how the plane should perform, rather than have both the tutor and customer struggle and make it seem as though the plane always performs so poorly. That said, it's not easy to have a bona fide hand tool expert that is good at everything present at every store.

I was under the impression that the OP went to the store on certain date and time as agreed beforehand with the store. If that wasn't the case, please disregard my comments about the lack of preparations by the store.
Unless the expert staff who was supoosed to be present could not make it to work due to unforseen circumstances, I could not understand why after four hours of tuition, the OP was still struggling with what is supposed to be a big improvement over the 55. I could turn someone who has never used a plow (or rabbet plane) into a competent user of the respective tool if they spend just one hour (or even less) with me.
Simon

[Patrick Chase]

Unless the expert staff who was supoosed to be present could not make it to work due to unforseen circumstances, I could not understand why after four hours of tuition, the OP was still struggling with what is supposed to be a big improvement over the 55.

When reading a "remarkable" account, one must always consider the possibility that that account is itself unreliable for one reason or another. Perhaps the LV instructor had problems with the plane as described, or perhaps he expressed empathy with and validated William's obvious frustrations (this is "dealing with a frustrated customer 101" stuff) and William misunderstood that as an admission that the instructor himself had similar issues. Perhaps LV actually did have some sort of campaign to reach out to customers about "wracking" problems as William claimed in his previous thread (and they just happened to forget to call all of the rest of us here on SMC who have that plane), or perhaps he misunderstood in that instance as well. Etc etc.

Also there's only so much you can do to improve usability of a plane that has no mouth, no sole, a fence that sometimes needs to be positioned distant from the iron, etc. Combos are among the most difficult planes to use, period. Four hours isn't anywhere near enough time to master one IMO (at least it wasn't for me).

I could turn someone who has never used a plow (or rabbet plane) into a competent user of the respective tool if they spend just one hour (or even less) with me.

You might be able to do that with "someone", but I very much doubt you could do that with "anyone". There are all sorts of reasons why somebody might be slow to come up to speed on something like this.

[Stewie Simpson]

William; watch the following video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfc80MBHYag

[James Pallas]

William, sorry to see you struggle. I see and deduce from your description a couple of things. The knickers are if no use along the grain, they may interfere rather than help. If the skates are getting very hot than the plane is not adjusted properly. Just like a shoulder plane or rebbate plane the iron should protrude from the skate. If not all kinds of problems occur. Hard to push, etc. I have not used that plane, would love to, it is ambidextrous I understand. That being the case to deal with grain I would just set it up for opposite hand use. That cut you are attempting is difficult. Just try sawing a straight line with the saw that far away from your body. Persevere and you will succeed. I love my 45 and use it somewhere on nearly every project.
Jim

[William Fretwell]

I think what he's referring to is holding the fence with your thumb over the top, such that it rests against the workpiece and acts as a sort of "fence depth gauge". I do that with my fenced planes sometimes.

Yes Patrick that's exactly what I mean.

[Phil Mueller]

Hi William, I can relate to your frustration. I haven’t used that plane, but I recently attempted a dado with my Record 044 that was about 4” away from the edge. The Record has been flawless when close to the edge. Just a few inches away, total new learning curve. The first attempt wasn’t pretty. The second was better. Just took a lot more patience and concentration. In the future, I’ll probably just reverse the board and go against the grain.

As James said, keep at it. Good luck!

[William Fretwell]

William; watch the following video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfc80MBHYag

Thanks Stewie, the pine is easy to work with, the oak a bit harder. By the time he cuts the window sash I can empathise with the difficulty.
Rather subjectively the Stanley 45 appears to have more 'heft'. Mass in a plane is usually a good thing.
The lessons: light cut, maximal fence registration, balance, balance, balance.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

The knickers are if no use along the grain

Well, if your knickers are getting in the way of the cut, I can understand the trouble. Candle wax won’t solve that. I would recommend a good belt, or maybe some suspenders. Keep those things where they belong and you ought to do okay.

[Derek Cohen]

Originally Posted by Patrick Chase
I think what he's referring to is holding the fence with your thumb over the top, such that it rests against the workpiece and acts as a sort of "fence depth gauge". I do that with my fenced planes sometimes.

Yes Patrick that's exactly what I mean.

What for? If the thumb is pressing on the work piece, then the palm cannot exert sufficient pressure sideways against the work piece and balance the plane.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

I try to think of the fence as a guide similar to a baton. It helps me to get the cut started. Once you have that you aren't going to change much. Once you have the cut started along the whole board starting from the far end you can concentrate on keeping the plane level, just like a rabbet. I have never bothered to take the fence off with beads but I have removed a baton when doing dados and rabbets. I believe the plane would be self guiding once started.
Jim

[James Pallas]

Well, if your knickers are getting in the way of the cut, I can understand the trouble. Candle wax won’t solve that. I would recommend a good belt, or maybe some suspenders. Keep those things where they belong and you ought to do okay.

yes Nicholas I've have been known to get my "knickers" in a knot when the skates are out of alignment.
Jim

[Nicholas Lawrence]

yes Nicholas I've have been known to get my "knickers" in a knot when the skates are out of alignment.
Jim

Thought it might be time for a little humor James. Hate to see everyone all worked up. Life is too short.

My only substantive advice (not an expert, but have used my Sargent 1080 a fair amount for grooving and beading): a combination plane needs three things to work, (1) sharp cutters, (2) light cuts, (3) straight grain. Starting at the end of the cut and working back helps an awful lot too.

And at the end of the day, some boards just don’t want to be beaded.

[Simon MacGowen]

When reading a "remarkable" account, one must always consider the possibility that that account is itself unreliable for one reason or another. Perhaps the LV instructor had problems with the plane as described, or perhaps he expressed empathy with and validated William's obvious frustrations (this is "dealing with a frustrated customer 101" stuff) and William misunderstood that as an admission that the instructor himself had similar issues. Perhaps LV actually did have some sort of campaign to reach out to customers about "wracking" problems as William claimed in his previous thread (and they just happened to forget to call all of the rest of us here on SMC who have that plane), or perhaps he misunderstood in that instance as well. Etc etc.

Also there's only so much you can do to improve usability of a plane that has no mouth, no sole, a fence that sometimes needs to be positioned distant from the iron, etc. Combos are among the most difficult planes to use, period. Four hours isn't anywhere near enough time to master one IMO (at least it wasn't for me).

You might be able to do that with "someone", but I very much doubt you could do that with "anyone". There are all sorts of reasons why somebody might be slow to come up to speed on something like this.

Hi Patrick,

I think you missed my message. Mine wasn't about the plane, the "perhaps", any possible misunderstandings (between the tutor and William or between any two entities), or any of the etcs.

My focus was on why after four hours of tuition from a source that was supposed to be an authority on the subject, our reporter (William) who was not a newbie in using hand tools still has had some unsolved issues with his use of his plane.

"Four hours isn't anywhere near enough time to master one IMO (at least it wasn't for me)."

If someone bought the combo plane and received a four-hour one-to-one lesson from the combo plane manufacturer and came back to me that they could still not use the plane to make decent (NOT master-class) cuts with decent (NOT master-class) results, I would advise them to return the plane and get a refund. Then use part of the refund to get a Stanley 45 and struggle with it for a lot less money!, a path that Steve and others have recommended. The plane simply wasn't the right tool for them AND for a lot of people who are contemplating it.

We are talking about using the plane not mastering it. Someone may never master the use of a tool. Your statement about mastery is taking my message off its intended path.

Let's not forget the story that a little girl at one of the shows picked up the plane and used it without instructions! NO, she had not got any four hours of instructions from anyone on the new plane.


Any attempts -- intentional or unintentional; knowing or unknowing -- to brush off William's tutorial experience as insignificant instead of trying to help pinpoint what (the lesson, the tool, the set-up, etc.) has not gone right are a misguided effort. Such attempts are not helping Veritas at all; those of us watching are wondering if it is the plane or something else that makes the tool a difficult tool. If it were as difficult to learn and to use as a Stanley 45, what would be the point of spending money on the new plane?

I am not to argue with anyone who thinks I can't teach someone or anyone to use a plow plane competently within an hour. It is a matter of personal assessment, but I can say that if I could not use a woodworking tool (any tools, power or hand) to produce acceptable results after two -- not four -- hours of instructions in person, that tool, no matter who manufactures it, would never find a spot in my shop. Period.

Simon

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

That was very strange for me to read such negative view on this plane... I'm newbie myself but I did not dare to start my first cut using this plane with fully extended fence. And then even more strange to see tutor to do the same. Did you try to learn how to use this plane or did you want to teach tutor how not to use it?

First I tried it as a plow, making groove on an edge. Then I cut corresponding tong. And I like it more for this than small plow plane with wide blade conversion kit because of: fence position micro adjustment; and because it is bigger and both skates are bigger.

I also tried to make triple reed using one bead iron in three stages. Thanks to micro adjustment fence again, it was easy to catch the same spacing between beads. This is my learning board:



(This is European steamed beech, in reality it is more red than yellow.)

I did notice that nickers and corresponding set screws have to be watched over. Either nicker can stick out and dig into the wood, or set screw on the other side will dig instead. Probably would remove them when not in use, as suggested by Dear Sirs above.