Combination Plane and Lee Valley Tuition

[Simon MacGowen]

Can I suggest the manufacture could have made that learning curb a little easier by not designing a hand plane with so many adjustment points. 17 in total.

I am very familiar with (and am very competent in) in the Veritas plow and rabbet planes. I have had no issues with their adjustments (you may take more time to switch between the groove and tongue functions, if you don't use them often).

I have not had a chance to use the new Combo Plane, but I do not see the large no. of adjustments as a source of issues in using the plane. Each adjustment is done before the plane is put to use, and each adjustment has its designated purpose. Once the adjustments are set in enough no. of times, they won't be confusing or hard to remember. As far as I see it, the adjustmens are a non-issue.

Simon

[Patrick Chase]

I am very familiar with (and am very competent in) in the Veritas plow and rabbet planes. I have had no issues with their adjustments (you may take more time to switch between the groove and tongue functions, if you don't use them often).

I have not had a chance to use the new Combo Plane, but I do not see the large no. of adjustments as a source of issues in using the plane. Each adjustment is done before the plane is put to use, and each adjustment has its designated purpose. Once the adjustments are set in enough no. of times, they won't be confusing or hard to remember. As far as I see it, the adjustmens are a non-issue.

Simon

Hey. we agree!

Seriously, I have the plane and I don't find the number of adjustments to be an issue. They're all very straightforward, and on balance easier to set up than a 45 IMO.

With that said, all combo planes are a good deal more complicated to set up than a typical bench plane. It goes with the territory as they say.

[Lorenzo Geib]

One thing that hasn't been addressed is wood selection and orientation. With ANY open mouthed plane selecting straight grain wood and orienting your cuts so you aren't cutting against rising grain is a key to success. Sometimes your whole project should be planned so you don't have to make those tough cuts.

If you are using a regular plane and experience tear out, you turn the wood around or find another piece. Why would you expect that a plane that has no sole and no chip breaker would perform better?

Find a nice compliant piece of wood to learn on. Then try making cuts no more than and inch or less from the fence to start. Later, you can try cuts on the far side of a board and against the grain.

[Frederick Skelly]

One thing that hasn't been addressed is wood selection and orientation. With ANY open mouthed plane selecting straight grain wood and orienting your cuts so you aren't cutting against rising grain is a key to success. Sometimes your whole project should be planned so you don't have to make those tough cuts.

If you are using a regular plane and experience tear out, you turn the wood around or find another piece. Why would you expect that a plane that has no sole and no chip breaker would perform better?

Find a nice compliant piece of wood to learn on. Then try making cuts no more than and inch or less from the fence to start. Later, you can try cuts on the far side of a board and against the grain.

Good thoughts.

Welcome to the Creek Lorenzo! Glad to have you with us. It sounds like you are very experienced - hope to see more of your thoughts in future posts!
Fred

[Simon MacGowen]

One thing that hasn't been addressed is wood selection and orientation. With ANY open mouthed plane selecting straight grain wood and orienting your cuts so you aren't cutting against rising grain is a key to success. Sometimes your whole project should be planned so you don't have to make those tough cuts.

Totally right. A few did mention about grain directions in the thread.

However, the difference between an average woodworker and a skilled woodworker sometimes lies in how they deal with an adversary condition or a less than ideal situation, in this case reversing grain.

If I had to choose a board between best appearance and grain direction, I would follow the advice of many great furniture makers before me and go with aesthetics. There is an array of solutions to deal with reversing grains, including using a router bit, worse comes to worse and why make an unnecessary sacrifice.

It is not the subject of this thread but reversing grains are not the end of the world and can be handled with various techniques including the use of back bevel. If I ever own one of the new Combo Plane, I do not expect reversing grains to be a hurdle for me at all (I don't have both right and left hand plows or rabbet planes and grain directions don't bother me or my work).

Simon

[Mike Brady]

No one has mentioned that these planes are limited to use on flat boards. A scratch stock or a beading tool, in the case of the discussion above, could handle both the grain problem and add the benefit of adding the desired profiles to a curved edge. You don't have to go to school to use one and a person can make his own if desired.

[Patrick Chase]

No one has mentioned that these planes are limited to use on flat boards. A scratch stock or a beading tool, in the case of the discussion above, could handle both the grain problem and add the benefit of adding the desired profiles to a curved edge. You don't have to go to school to use one and a person can make his own if desired.

Indeed. The only concern with scratch stocks is that they're (a lot) more work and they don't leave as clean a surface when the grain is cooperative. Simon's suggestion of back beveling (also previously made by Derek as well) is a nice intermediate solution, that works most of the time IMO.

[John Gornall]

From the OP " The skates are so hot the molten wax"

Makes me wonder if there's a white knuckle problem here - I often have to get people to lighten up when teaching - they just want to hold so tight and push so hard

There needs to be a little finesse in using these planes

In the leveling matter a video of plowing a groove - notice the dowel in the fence block to indicate the plane is tilting or not

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK284m0wJME

A video on plowing a bead

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLKZ1RV6uUo

[William Fretwell]

From the OP " The skates are so hot the molten wax"

Makes me wonder if there's a white knuckle problem here - I often have to get people to lighten up when teaching - they just want to hold so tight and push so hard

There needs to be a little finesse in using these planes

In the leveling matter a video of plowing a groove - notice the dowel in the fence block to indicate the plane is tilting or not

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK284m0wJME

A video on plowing a bead

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLKZ1RV6uUo

Wax restored the finesse! The primary lesson from the videos: after starting, ditch the fence. Before the wax the friction on the skates was huge. Both videos use non challenging woods also. I am leaning towards thinking more mass would help also.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi William

This is all part of an education for all, so firstly my thanks for posting your experience here.

The message to take away is that planing beads is a mix of experience and set up. The experience is how to hold and push the plane, where to place the pressure on the fence, how to adjust downforce for different sections of the board, how much blade extension is needed, how light a cut to make, reading the grain and choosing wood, and setting up the plane for optimal work.

One of the problems in passing this on is that some of this becomes intuitive after a while, and one forgets the small details. Threads like this are helpful in reminding one to concentrate again on the important bits. One of my problems is that I post advice in the few free minutes between my appointments, to clear my head, and some of this is rushed and may come across as impatient. My apology to all if this is so.

Learning to plane beads with a plough plane is actually one of the more difficult tasks. It is far easier to learn to plough a groove, and that is what I suggest that all should master first before moving on. Also, it is important to use the fence, since the most common ploughing you will do is a groove for a drawer side or front, which is near the edge of the board. If you hold the fence as I recommended earlier (pushing it against the side of the work piece or bench), you will find it quite easy to balance and control. Wax the wooden sub-fence and skate, and it will run smoothly.

There is an article on my website about ploughing beads with the Small Plow, which was made after that accessory became available. The aspect I wish to point out is that a 15 degree backbevel on the lands really helps to reduce, even prevent, any tearout.



I always take the lightest of cuts until the groove is established. A light grip and push forward from low down on the handle. More pressure sideways on the fence - essentially the same applies if you are running the plane against a straight edge (such as in the video Stewie linked to), which is needed when planing a dado: I want to push the body of the plane against the straight edge, and then I will try and do this simultaneously from the back and the side.

Always start your planing at the end of the board and work your way back. If the wood is more interlocked/has more reversing grain, then make the planing-from-the-end in short sections - the aim is to be planing downhill as much as you can. In other words, you are creating your own grain direction.

Post more of your progress here. Your experience is helpful for all.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

(I don't have both right and left hand plows or rabbet planes and grain directions don't bother me or my work).

Though they are not made as left handed planes my Record #778 rabbet plane can be used left handed as can my Stanley #45. From what is shown in images of the Veritas Combination Plane it should also be able to be set up to work as a left handed plane.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Though they are not made as left handed planes my Record #778 rabbet plane can be used left handed as can my Stanley #45. From what is shown in images of the Veritas Combination Plane it should also be able to be set up to work as a left handed plane.

jtk

That's correct, the LV Combo can be used with the fence on either side. As with the 45 there are limitations when using irons narrower than 1/4", though, as in that case you only have a nicker and depths stop on the right side.

[William Fretwell]

Thanks Derek for your input. Yes the plane is very different. Standard planes you worry about sharpness, depth of cut & grain direction but not balance. I have not tried a back bevel on the lands but tear out was not much of an issue.
The type of wood also has a much bigger influence on the outcome. I am used to planing some difficult woods, but that is with a chip breaker. Bevel up planes give you some education on how beneficial a chip breaker is.
Will continue to practice my balance.

[Rob Lee]

Hi,

Posting in threads like this is a bit awkward for me....where customers and staff are involved.

Let me firstly acknowledge that Mr Fretwell’s experience with the plane to date has not been what we would have wanted, despite efforts on both sides to correct it. As this plane is very new, there just aren’t a lot of people out there with a lot of experience using it in the stores. We do have training programs for all staff to support technical product, though with 20 retail locations, it does take a bit of time to deploy. We also support training with video, teleconferencing, and shared knowledge though internal web based resources.

I can’t fault our store staff for the efforts they’ve gone to, to help solve the customer’s concerns. Likewise, Mr Fretwell should have had a better learning experience.

We learn by doing things, making best efforts, and learning from the results. Clearly, there are still learnings to come from this.

There has been a lot of good advice given to Mr Fretwell in this thread, and we have several senior people following the discussion, and addressing any training/support issues identified.

Rob Lee

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi,

Posting in threads like this is a bit awkward for me....where customers and staff are involved.

Let me firstly acknowledge that Mr Fretwell’s experience with the plane to date has not been what we would have wanted, despite efforts on both sides to correct it. As this plane is very new, there just aren’t a lot of people out there with a lot of experience using it in the stores. We do have training programs for all staff to support technical product, though with 20 retail locations, it does take a bit of time to deploy. We also support training with video, teleconferencing, and shared knowledge though internal web based resources.

I can’t fault our store staff for the efforts they’ve gone to, to help solve the customer’s concerns. Likewise, Mr Fretwell should have had a better learning experience.

We learn by doing things, making best efforts, and learning from the results. Clearly, there are still learnings to come from this.

There has been a lot of good advice given to Mr Fretwell in this thread, and we have several senior people following the discussion, and addressing any training/support issues identified.

Rob Lee

Thank you for speaking up here Rob. In some ways, it would have been easier for you to stay quiet on this one. But as usual, you've done what's right. Your personal attention to your customers' experience is one of many reasons LV has such a loyal following. I have a shop full of your handtools.

Fred