Best transition method from router bits to shaper tooling

[Patrick Kane]

As my previous thread mentioned, i just sold my router table setup and moved in a used felder 700 saw/shaper. The machine has a high speed router spindle and im waiting on the 1-1/4" spindle from felder in a couple weeks. My original game plan was to use the shaper with the high speed router spindle and pick up shaper tooling as needed. Assuming over the next year or two i would get a byrd head for template work, some form of a rebate head for rebates and chamfers, and finally a cope, stick, and panel set. I read through a dozen forum threads here, and it seems like insert heads are the way to go in the long run. There are mixed opinions on steel versus aluminum heads, but i take it the more expensive steel heads are better balanced and bored. Unfortunately, most steel insert sets are freaking expensive--$1800+. I like the idea of insert heads, because i can invest in well balanced heads once and i can have a different profile in a week with $50-100. Looking around on ebay etc, i think nice steel cutterheads come up for sale with some regularity at pretty good prices. Looks like for the same price of a new aluminum head from freud, i can have a steel head from rangate or some other manufacturer. One, some of these manufacturers are no longer out of business, but i see some insert makers can CNC new profile inserts. Is this true or are some of these proprietary and rendering out of stock heads obsolete in the future? Anything to avoid or look for when buying used insert heads?

My current thinking is it's alwas conservative to buy as you need it, but if buying used steel tooling is the best long term approach, then i need to buy when the deal presents itself. Finally, is a power feeder absolutely necessary when running a shaper? I cant seem to find an affordable used feeder, and new ones look like $1000+. Is there a means of using the sliding table or some other workholding method to safely manually feed, or am i asking for trouble? Where this is headed is i have a solid array of cabinet profile router bit sets from CMT, Sommerfeld etc. that do not require a power feed. The second i go down the shaper tooling route, the tooling is expensive, the power feeder is expensive, and honestly, the 1-1/4" spindle was kinda expensive too. Tossing around if i should limp along with router bits for the next year before i drop $3000+ to properly outfit the shaper function of the combo machine.

[John P Clark]

Shaper cutters are not cheap- but find the ones you need for the work you are going to be doing and buy the best you can afford - I have a combination of insert and carbide tipped ones. I would also at a minimum get a good hold down for the shaper- Felder has one that works well. Lastly, I would not run a shaper without a power feeder for two reasons - cuts are always better, and the major reason is safety

[brent stanley]

Hi Patrick, depending on what you're up to, you should seriously consider Euroblocks that use replacable HSS tooling. Very economical and flexible. Unless you're pushing out millions of linear feet a year, it's easily the most economical. Whitehill tools makes a combination head that gives you a full function, carbide shear cut rebate block with knickers , limiter head for off the shelf HSS tooling (or your own profiles that any decent grinding shop can make for you) as well as the option for making full length, tenons with scribed shoulders on passageway doors.....all in one head. Here's the link to their web page, but I've also gotten so many quedtions about it that I made a little video describing its features.

http://www.whitehill-tools.com/catal...?cid=2&c2id=60

https://youtu.be/1Z7DMBfzluY

I'm not much of a vidiographer!

[Rod Sheridan]

As a basic set you should have a carbide rebate head, probably 125mm diameter and 50mm high, and a Euroblock head for 40mm steel knives with limiters for MAN operation (manual feeding).

You could also consider a reversible adjustable slotting cutter that will either cut slots or both sides of a tenon at once.

I also have a large tenon cutter that can cut a tenon 74mm long, and a dado set that fits either my saw or shaper ( I have 1 1/4" and 30mm spindles).

Oh, I also forgot I find a sanding drum handy for the shaper as I don't have a spindle sander.

As others have said a feeder is a must,. as is a set of safety fingers to bridge the open gap in the fence................Regards, Rod.

P.S. The Spindle Molder Handbook by Stephenson is a good resource, all the other common books are decades out of date.

[elliot worrall]

Great question. Am grappling with the same issue myself.

[elliot worrall]

As my previous thread mentioned, i just sold my router table setup and moved in a used felder 700 saw/shaper. The machine has a high speed router spindle and im waiting on the 1-1/4" spindle from felder in a couple weeks. My original game plan was to use the shaper with the high speed router spindle and pick up shaper tooling as needed. Assuming over the next year or two i would get a byrd head for template work, some form of a rebate head for rebates and chamfers, and finally a cope, stick, and panel set. I read through a dozen forum threads here, and it seems like insert heads are the way to go in the long run. There are mixed opinions on steel versus aluminum heads, but i take it the more expensive steel heads are better balanced and bored. Unfortunately, most steel insert sets are freaking expensive--$1800+. I like the idea of insert heads, because i can invest in well balanced heads once and i can have a different profile in a week with $50-100. Looking around on ebay etc, i think nice steel cutterheads come up for sale with some regularity at pretty good prices. Looks like for the same price of a new aluminum head from freud, i can have a steel head from rangate or some other manufacturer. One, some of these manufacturers are no longer out of business, but i see some insert makers can CNC new profile inserts. Is this true or are some of these proprietary and rendering out of stock heads obsolete in the future? Anything to avoid or look for when buying used insert heads?

My current thinking is it's alwas conservative to buy as you need it, but if buying used steel tooling is the best long term approach, then i need to buy when the deal presents itself. Finally, is a power feeder absolutely necessary when running a shaper? I cant seem to find an affordable used feeder, and new ones look like $1000+. Is there a means of using the sliding table or some other workholding method to safely manually feed, or am i asking for trouble? Where this is headed is i have a solid array of cabinet profile router bit sets from CMT, Sommerfeld etc. that do not require a power feed. The second i go down the shaper tooling route, the tooling is expensive, the power feeder is expensive, and honestly, the 1-1/4" spindle was kinda expensive too. Tossing around if i should limp along with router bits for the next year before i drop $3000+ to properly outfit the shaper function of the combo machine.

Hi Patrick, depending on what you're up to, you should seriously consider Euroblocks that use replacable HSS tooling. Very economical and flexible. Unless you're pushing out millions of linear feet a year, it's easily the most economical. Whitehill tools makes a combination head that gives you a full function, carbide shear cut rebate block with knickers , limiter head for off the shelf HSS tooling (or your own profiles that any decent grinding shop can make for you) as well as the option for making full length, tenons with scribed shoulders on passageway doors.....all in one head. Here's the link to their web page, but I've also gotten so many quedtions about it that I made a little video describing its features.

http://www.whitehill-tools.com/catal...?cid=2&c2id=60

https://youtu.be/1Z7DMBfzluY

I'm not much of a vidiographer!

Thanks for comment Brent. That seems like a very versatile head.

The recessed head part is interesting. Do you use this much? does it seem a little dangerous?

[John Gulick]

Great question. Am grappling with the same issue myself.

Me too, we have run with a few router tables for many years, now the transition will be slow. I will be watching. thanks to all for input

[Mike King]

Patrick, I'll just echo the advice given by David Best: don't go out and buy a bunch of tooling. Instead, look at what you are really going to do and buy tools as you go along accordingly.

Is it too late to change the shaper spindle? Many folk on the Felder user's group suggest sticking with the 30mm spindle. You can use top hats and bushings for any 1 ¼ tooling you decide to use, and they are cheap.

I use the shaper on my CF 741 to cut tenons. I bought a couple of the big shaper rebate heads (220mm) to cut both faces of the tenon at once. I also have the Felder universal profile cutter head -- you can buy knives from a variety of sources, including axminster so you aren't locked into Felder's pricing.

Mike

[brent stanley]

Thanks for comment Brent. That seems like a very versatile head.

The recessed head part is interesting. Do you use this much? does it seem a little dangerous?

It really is a tremendous bargain in my opinion and gives you so much potential in one head at what I think is a very reasonable price point if you think of the cost of buying individual heads. The rebate block is the block I use the most by far and no longer make rebates with the table saw. This head produces rebates that are so much cleaner, and safer because I have power feeders on the shapers, and swapping this head out on the shaper is way faster than swapping out the blade on the table saw for a dado stack. You also don't need to remove the carbide rebate knives to run the limiter knives. You can get knives for this head that have four different roundover radiuses (radii?) on the one knife that will replace four router bits and produce cleaner results. You can get a smaller or larger version of this head, but your machine can run the larger version.

I haven't used the tenoning function of this head yet, but hope to soon and will video document when I do so. I will say that European safety standards are far higher than NA standards in this field, so if it wasn't safe, they couldn't make the head. You need enough of a machine to do the job and the proper setup. Rod gives good advice for documentation.

[Patrick Kane]

Glad the discussion will help several people.

From what i gather, my first tooling purchase needs to be followed by a power feeder--great... I take it 1hp is the standard? Is there any point to wait for a used one or is that wishful thinking? I assume finding a feeder not already attached to a shaper/saw will be unlikely. Also, not sure if there will be many single phase machines. This all leads me to believe im looking for a needle in the haystack on the used market. What is an affordable, but usable machine to buy new? I dont want to drop $2000 on a feed.

I need to rephrase the original question, i think. The reason i started the thread is a few listings for DeHart tooling for about 1/3rd what they retailed for when in business. From what i can dig up, they made great stuff and i can have new knives made by a few CNC shops. It then sparked me to think about keeping an eye on auctions and buying tooling when it was substantially discounted instead of buying new freud, amana etc. when i needed it. Im in support of David Best's advice, but there are a few essentials just about every shop will need at some point. Those being a template/pattern head, rebate head, and some form of frame and panel set. You can argue if all you make are chairs and tables that you dont need the last one. A close fourth would be some form of slot cutting/tenoning head. I have a domino and plan on picking up a 700 sometime soon, so i dont have this high on my list. For the rare instances i want traditional tenon, i can do them on the saw with a dado stack. Anyways, you get why im not adverse to buying tooling ahead of time if im deal hunting. I might not use it today or tomorrow, but im going to use it within the year. Stuff like lock miters or glue joints or something else is where i agree not to buy until you have a project for it. What is the group consensus, stick to euroblock stuff for my purposes when i need it or invest in used top of the line tooling?

I almost started a 30mm versus 1-1/4" thread, but was afraid to anger the veteran shaper group. After reading a few treads and thinking it over, you cant really go wrong. At the end of the day, i wont buy a new shaper for the foreseeable future. Heck, i may never buy a new shaper in my life. At some point, im going to probably buy a separate used shaper and sell this kf700 or dedicate it to the saw function. In the event i am fortunate enough to do that, there is a 90% chance the next used shaper will be 1-1/4". Im not arguing it wont also have a 30mm spindle in addition to the 1-1/4 spindle, but nearly every machine i see on classifieds/auctions have 1-1/4" spindles. This means in the future i could have thousands of dollars in tooling become obsolete if i dedicate myself to 30mm now. As you already mentioned, 1-1/4 can become 30mm if i need it to be, cant go the other way. That was part of it, the other part is we are in america with a plethora of new and used tooling locally available. Most of the stuff I buy from Felder will be 4-6 week minimum. Finally, i think you just need to make a decision and run with it. Either choice has pros and cons. The cool part about 30mm over 1-1/4 is the ability to run on the saw or the shaper. Other than that, i dont think i will regret the 1-1/4 decision too much.

I need to consider it, but if a feeder is required for a lot of this tooling, i will put off buying tooling for awhile. I just dont feel like spending $2000 upfront to begin doing the simplest of operations on the machine. I know using this machine with the router spindle and router bits is completely missing the point, but thats a substantial initial price tag to make a few cabinet doors or something similar.

[Brad Shipton]

I bought a Garniga multi-iso years ago. It is the most useful shaper cutter I own. Expensive, yes, but it does a lot.

https://rangate.com/products/multi-use-cutter

[brent stanley]

Glad the discussion will help several people.

but there are a few essentials just about every shop will need at some point. Those being a template/pattern head, rebate head, and some form of frame and panel set. You can argue if all you make are chairs and tables that you dont need the last one. A close fourth would be some form of slot cutting/tenoning head. I have a domino and plan on picking up a 700 sometime soon, so i dont have this high on my list. For the rare instances i want traditional tenon, i can do them on the saw with a dado stack. Anyways, you get why im not adverse to buying tooling ahead of time if im deal hunting. I might not use it today or tomorrow, but im going to use it within the year. Stuff like lock miters or glue joints or something else is where i agree not to buy until you have a project for it. What is the group consensus, stick to euroblock stuff for my purposes when i need it or invest in used top of the line tooling?

Of all the things you listed above, that Combi head I linked to can do them all except for the slot cutting. With the 6mm thick knives, you could get knives that make a slot whatever width you want up to 18mm deep. Not as versatile as an adjustable groover because you'd need a new set of knives for every slot width, but it can be done. You could run panels on edge to raise them, but a dedicated panel raiser might be wise. You can get knives off the shelf for many different frame and panel profiles, lock miters, glue joint etc etc. You'd already own the head, just need to buy the knives. If you are going to work a lot in man made materials, get the knives tipped in carbide. Easy peasy....

The large Combi head with template bearing, an adjustable groover and a panel raiser and you could do most of what you'll need.

[Mike King]

A 30mm spindle gives you access to the Euro tooling that is much safer than the US stuff and to the cheap 1 ¼ used stuff you may find. If you later buy a separate shaper, you can buy a 30 mm spindle for it to maintain access to the 30mm tooling. Having only the 1 ¼ spindle means you can't use 30mm tooling.

I'm no expert, but it appears to me that the true top of the line tooling is European in origin (Garniga, etc.).

That Whitehill head looks a lot like the Felder universal head.

Mike

[brent stanley]

A 30mm spindle gives you access to the Euro tooling that is much safer than the US stuff and to the cheap 1 ¼ used stuff you may find. If you later buy a separate shaper, you can buy a 30 mm spindle for it to maintain access to the 30mm tooling. Having only the 1 ¼ spindle means you can't use 30mm tooling.

I'm no expert, but it appears to me that the true top of the line tooling is European in origin (Garniga, etc.).

That Whitehill head looks a lot like the Felder universal head.

Mike

It's similar Mike, but doesn't have the shear-cut rebate block with knickers, or the ability to work as a tenoner.

[Jared Sankovich]

I can't add much other than to agree with what has already been said. Get a euro block, a couple different rebate heads i like amana steel heads here (all under $200). And a power feeder. Co-matic varible speed dc or the same but in grizzly green for $800. The freud rp2000 panel raise kit is a good value.

Beyond that cope and stick options depend on how thick you make doors. Lots of options if you only make 3/4 to 13/16 doors. I prefer thicker doors @ 1.175" or just under 1&3/16" . With those I use passage/ exterior door cutter sets.