BT30 ATC Tool Holders

[Mark Bolton]

Question,
We have 10HP HSD spindle, BT30, 10 position ATC. ER-32 collets. I regularly come across great deals on BT30 ER32 collet holders that are too hard to pass up. That said, Ive gotten three now that have a bit different geometry than those that we run in the ATC.

Two different purchases, one for a couple of ER32 collet holders and one for a nice albrecht style chuck, have a slightly different dimensions in the recess that register with the forks on the ATC (the three are smaller in diameter so they flop around in the fork = useless for the ATC). Also, while they are all M12 for the pull stud, the three have a slightly smaller counterbore at the tip of the taper (our ATC holders measure 13mm on the counter bore and the three measure 12.5)

Lastly, the BT30 holders you commonly see out there have the recess for the tool fork machined offset (closer to the collet nut) whereas ours are centered?

Anyone know the callouts or designations for these dimensions? I will continue to pick up these bargain holders for manual changes but would love to be able to keep an eye out for those that would work in the ATC as well.

The one on the left in the image is what we run in the ATC, the one on the right seems to be the standard style you find.

20171111_124001.jpg

[Mark Bolton]

Is it the ISO30 spec?

[Brad Shipton]

I believe your spindle is the HSD ES919 (http://www.hsdusa.com/viewdoc.asp?co_id=449). That is an ISO30. If you spin the tool holder on the left I am pretty sure the part number is SPZ.30DIN05032ERR (it is on the bottom lip that goes into the tool fork, very fine laser printing). Are you finding tool holders cheaper than this: https://www.cnc-tool.com/cnc-toolholders-iso.html Vortex matched that price, and that is where I get mine. To use that with your forks the diameter of the tool body needs to be 50mm.

Techniks CNC router manual has a pretty complete set of diagrams showing all the different dimensions. I think page 42 will be of interest. That shows the different pull studs. I am curious if the machine manufacturer changed the torque spec in the machine manual for the collet nuts? It was wrong in mine. The correct torque spec is in the Techniks manual for ER32.
http://www.techniksusa.com/downloads/CNC_Router_Catalog_2016.pdf

[Mark Bolton]

Thanks Brad. I will look through the info. I would hate to tell you what I paid for the BT30 ER32 collet holders (working fine in the cnc but I hold them off for single op manual tool changes).

In doing a bit more research it seems the ISO30 is the real issue. Even if you search Ebay for BT30 ER32 and then add the ISO30 to the search you can see the difference.

The two BT30/er32 collet holders (same as the ones in my photo) came in a lot we purchased and if I were to do the math they cost me about 12.00 each US. I wish they would work in the ATC but we do a lot of single op's and to have one on hand to keep a probe permanently mounted is nice.

[Brad Shipton]

The BT30 seems fairly common in the steel machinist world. Maybe Brian will comment. When I compared the two drawings the BT30 seemed to have the same taper, but there are a lot of different dimensions available for the tool body. The pull studs had the same overall dimension, the stud threads seemed to be the same, but the bottom and top of the studs look different in the images. I would not use these with the BT30 pull stud unless someone like Techniks says it is okay.

If they are off a steel milling machine I wonder if they are balanced to G2.5@24,000rpm? The new techniks ones are, but I believe that is not a common thing for the steel milling machines.

When it comes to these things I want them to match. I don't think I would use the BT30 myself, but I do not need a lot of tool holders. I bought a few for my door cutters and it sure is handy to have the tools setup so you can just change a variable. I have been thinking of putting one of Cosmos tool setting devices on mine lately (http://cosmos-industrial.com/index.p...6g4ak1d69q6r15). I do not trust my tool setter much, so lately I keep using the manual tool I picked up.

[Brian Lamb]

The one is BT30 the other is CAT30, two completely different animals in the V groove location and diameter. Taper is the same, pull stud threads will be metric on the BT, imperial on the CAT.

Should have mentioned the CAT units the V-groove is centered, the BT is off center, easy visible way to tell.

[Brian Lamb]

I didn't read all the replies before i responded, but if you are using ISO 30 taper.... that I'm not so sure about, it seems to be a combo/bastardized size. I bought a holder off of ebay "CHEAP" and it turned out to be ISO40, looks like a CAT40, but has metric threads, and no pull studs seem to be available on this side of the pond that I could readily find.

So, if your machine really needs ISO30, that is a different animal than BT for absolutely sure, and you might be able to use CAT with the proper pull studs, but I can't say that for certain. Where is your machine made as CAT or BT is usually the norm, at least in the metalworking field. Alos, most any 30 taper holder is balanced to 27,000 rpm, that's a pretty common spindle speed in newer CNC mills that are 30 taper.

[Mark Bolton]

Thanks for the input guys. The BT30's run perfectly in the CNC. As Brian said I think about everything is balanced to 27K now. Id love to only buy 150+ holders but its hard to pass up affordable holders especially running larger tooling at lower RPMS. Ive been tempeted to try some of the Ebay ISO30 holders that are stated to be 30K rated and are less than 50 bucks.

[Brian Lamb]

Just as a caution, pull studs vary. If they are a different length, or different angle on the knob, tool retention might not be correct. So make sure that not only is the taper going into the spindle, but that the draw stud is sucking that tool tight into the spindle. I've seen more than a couple machines have their spindle destroyed because someone used the wrong pull stud, and this is on $100k plus CNC machine where the spindle rebuilds can cost upwards of $30k-$40k.

I don't have enough experience in the "router" world to tell you what draw studs are correct, so please be careful.

[Brad Shipton]

I too would at least buy new pull studs. Companies like Techniks create the vast majority of their parts in a solid model. That means when you look at one of their drawings it is an exact scale version of the actual part. The pull studs for the BT30 and ISO30 are clearly different in their drawing. This part is a very important safety aspect that I would not try to save a few bucks on.

I was told by one tool supplier when I asked about the balancing of a tool I was buying that the new norm is to balance the tools to G2.5@24,000 or better, but you have no idea how old the tool holders are you are buying. That was not always the standard. There are lots of old milling machines I have found that max out at 10,000rpm.

Out of curiosity I downloaded 3D models of both pull studs from a site. The guys that post on that site are exceedingly fussy about details, so it is highly probable they are very accurate. I think you can see the difference. Does it make a matter, I have no idea.
ISO30-PULL-STUD.PNGBT30-PULL-STUD.PNG

[Brian Lamb]

Oh, that makes a difference, the first one is a 90º style stud, the second is a 45º, both could fit ISO 30 taper holders, but different styles of grippers. This is what I'm trying to say, in my 40 taper machine there are probably 4 or 5 different pull stud options, 90º, 60º, 45º and then the same angle options in a short, fat stubby draw stud. This can get very complicated if you don't know what stud you need.

[Brad Shipton]

My spidey senses thought it would. I have never taken apart a spindle, but I guessed jaws of the drawbar are customized to the shape the stud intended for the spindle.

[Mark Bolton]

Agreed on the studs. None of these came with studs (they are all brand new stock). The HSD studs from many sources are what Ive been running. Radius below the tip and I mic them before putting them in the holder and then I have been measuring the height from the taper to the top of he cone, and the taper to the tip of the pull stud with a height gauge. Couldnt agree more on wiping out a spindle or spinning a holder in the spindle. That'd be a bad day lol.

[Robert Bonenfant]

If your using a good volume of bits check out Amana Tools - We buy direct from them and the prices are great on tool holders and CNC bits

[Mark Bolton]

We buy quite a bit of Amana tooling though not direct. I had no idea they sold direct. Our stuff always comes through a distributor.