Are carbide tools causing us to lose skills in turning?

[Mikey Green]

I quit turning for a year or two, but just recently starting turning again. Before I took my hiatus, I'd purchased some carbide cutter tools and used them on a very limited basis for specific purposes. In coming back to my hobby and reviewing a lot of you-tube videos of others turning, as well as watching some television shows, I've noticed a fair number of people using carbide cutter tools for both spindle and bowl turning.

I'm definitely not trying to start any argument(s), don't want to list the names of the people I've seen on media turning, and I'm not about to speak negatively about carbide cutting tools or manufacturers of same, but in noticing some very experienced turners using them, it raised a question I wanted to run by others. When I returned to the lathe, I found myself increasingly picking up carbide cutting tools for different types of turning, and I had to force myself to use the regular spindle and bowl gouges to re-gain my cutting techniques. It seems it's getting to the point to where you can find a tool to create a cove, a bead, dig into end-grain, etc, just by sticking a tool against your stock, rather than having to manipulate a gouge to do the same thing.

Again, this is not meant to be a thread knocking those manufacturers who've created these new tools-only a survey to see if others feel the carbide cutting tools are causing us to lose some of our skills, or making it so much easier for us that we're losing some of our desire to use the "old gouges". So here are the questions;

1. Do you use carbide cutting tools (with replaceable cutters), spindle and bowl gouges?

2. Do you turn exclusively with roughing, spindle and bowl gouges?

3. Do you think the use of carbide cutting tools is causing us to lose some of our "craftsmanship" in creating our turnings?

4. Is it your desire (in turning) to create a pretty piece, or to increase your turning skills? These aren't always mutually exclusive, I know, but just curious to get the forums' turners to give some thoughts on the subject.

I'd be interested in any comments as well.

[Stan Calow]

I'll take a shot. Im just a hobbyist, turning occasionally for utilitarian objects (i.e., tool handles, basic pens), table legs, etc., not into bowls or art pieces.
For me, the time saved with carbide is whats important.
1) yes; 2) no - get most of the way there with carbide, finishing up with regular tools; 3) probably; 4) pretty is good, but precision is better.

But there is another thing that carbide does, and that is to get new people interested in turning since they can see positive results much more quickly.

[John Sanford]

Interesting that you don't even mention the skew. If not, then the answer to why you don't mention the skew is likely the same answer to the popularity of carbide tools.

[Marvin Hasenak]

I tried them, I got rid of them, I prefer a good sharp chisel, for me even a HF HSS is a better option than carbide. For years I was a production turner making game calls. A lot of my tooling including the specialty chisels I used, I had to make out of tool steel. The only use I have for them is the indexable tool bits that I use on my metal lathe.

[Michael Mills]

1 - yes 2 - no. But I do use conventional tools 90%+ of the time. I do have one carbide I may use occassionally.
3. I don't think it will cause a loss of craftsmanship. JMO but craftsmanship is the end result, use whatever tool you wish to get there. If you made a roll top desk it doesn't matter if you have a shop of power tools or hand tools. You can have a great final product with dovetail bits in a router or possibly a lousy product with a dovetail saw and chisel. Or vise versa.
4. Hopefully both but just because it is pretty doesn't mean it has any value. I would rather have an ugly bowl that held soup than a pretty one that didn't.

I didn't know the purpose was new, just the material. Over 30 years ago Del Stubbs showed the same basic tool, HSS brazed onto the end of the rod. Someone though of using carbide and now sells lots of handles at $100 each.

[George Troy Hurlburt]

Of course I think the finished project is all that counts. I have a 35 years collection of gouges, scraping, hollowing tools and maybe just a few carbide tools. I use carbide at times for crust busters on segmented bowls, glue dulls regular turning tools. Then I will use my others. I have a few tools with torque arms to get down inside and it doesn't get much better than that for safety.

[daryl moses]

I have some, i made my own but i don't use them very often. I NEVER use them for bowls although I did try. For me they do not do anything that a sharp bowl gouge or scrapper will not do better.
I do use them for end grain hollowing and they do a better job than anything else I have. But i'm sure there are "traditional" cutters that will do a better job than the carbides, I just don't own any.
In my opinion they are just another tool that supplements my arsenal of more traditional tools.

[Robert Henrickson]

1. I sometimes use Hunter tools, depending on the project, but none of the scraper-type carbide tools. I get a finely cut surface with the Hunters.

2. I use a wide variety of gouges for almost all my turning, but also bedan and skew.

3. With the scraper-type carbide tools, there may some loss of fine detail, such as in cutting deep/narrow sharp-bottom Vs, so "craftsmanship" might be considered somewhat slighted, but it may depend on what sorts of things are being turned.

4. My goal is to create something attractive and well-made. Trying new things is more likely to increase skills than turning more of what I've already turned in abundance. The improved skills are a potential benefit, not a conscious primary goal. I have a strong tendency toward "That looks interesting -- let's see if I can make something like that", so I wander into many types of specialist or traditional turning.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

In my opinion they are just another tool that supplements my arsenal of more traditional tools.

+1 to this. I do own and use them, but only when I THINK they do a better job than the traditional tools. I do prefer a sharp traditional tool. IMO there are quite a few cuts that cannot be done with a carbide. Or, more precisely, I don't know how you can do certain cuts with a carbide, since the shapes of the cutters are limited. A nice sharp V groove is one of them. Just my $0.02.
Although not mentioned, and in a class of it's own is the Termite end grain cutter. I think it's pretty close to a carbide, but I do like the Termite for hollowing end grain boxes. It gets deeper than a gouge.
Also not in the discussion as already mentioned, the skew. I use them, but rarely, since I'm not good at using them. I am getting better the more I practice.

[Steve Jenkins]

Something else kind of in the same vein. I was talking to a turning instructor at a woodworking show and he had his students learn on a treadle lathe. That put a huge emphasis on sharpening not being able to power through with a less than ideal tool

[Brandon Speaks]

I picked up a hunter and some carbide scraper about this time last year when getting back into turning. I actually had a lot of trouble with them at first compared to gouges.

Now I use one quite a bit. It seems that when I have a nice piece of wood I go with the gouge, when I am going out to quickly mess around and knock out a turning I use the hunter. No real reason more just habit I guess. Sometimes when a cut is not working with one I switch to the other and it helps.

I am by no means an experienced turner but for me right now I like having both options and would not want to give up either.

[John K Jordan]

Something else kind of in the same vein. I was talking to a turning instructor at a woodworking show and he had his students learn on a treadle lathe. That put a huge emphasis on sharpening not being able to power through with a less than ideal tool

Nice, I like that! I start beginners out with me turning the lathe by hand and with a sharp skew in their hands. This way they can get the feel for how the bevel and edge interact with the wood and as you imply, how to use finesse instead of force. I'd love to be able to drive the lathe at about 8-10 rpm. Treadle or spring pole lathe would be perfect.

To answer the question "are carbide tools causing us to lose skills in turning" I'd say only if you use them! (and never bother learn to use sharp tools.)

From my perspective you have to make the distinction between the type of carbide tools used by a couple of toolmakers including Mike Hunter and those made with cheap carbide inserts made for metal turning. I've used both and they are on the opposite ends of the spectrum. The Hunter tools can be used like a sharp spindle or bowl gouge or a fine scraper. The flat topped inserts can't. From what I've seen people don't even sharpen them when they get dull. When I tried them the surfaces I got was horrible and had to be sanded with 100 grit paper or coarser. The Hunter cutters can cut incredibly cleanly on bowls or spindles.

I use nothing exclusively. Much of my turning is with Thompson skews, gouges, and scrapers, depending, and a few specialty tools. I sometimes use a roughing gouge for spindles but usually rough with a skew instead.

The rest of my turning is usually with the Hunter tools.

JKJ

[Roger Chandler]

Personally, I rarely use a carbide tool. I have an EZ rougher, and only use it to do the inside wall of a box to give me that crisp 90 degree corner on the inside bottom. I also use a square scraper at times for the same thing. I much prefer to use traditional tools, and develop my skills increasingly along the way. I do use a hunter carbide cutter to smooth out the ridges on the inside of hollow forms.

To me, learning to properly use and sharpen tools is imperative to being an accomplished turner, although I do have a friend who mainly uses scrapers, and is quite an accomplished turner. I realize that Reed Gray and some others mainly use scrapers, but I am quite sure he also is very familiar with traditional tools and proficient in their usage.

Those things being said there are some that only do a bit of turning as a hobby, and turn small items like pens.....some of them do not want to invest in sharpening systems, etc, but being a full fledged turner of many varied forms will likely lead one to have and use traditional tools.

[allan kuntz]

I turn nothing but dry lumber laminated into a block or segmented, I have an EZ rougher and finisher that I use to rough turn then use a gouge or scrapper to finish cut. As far as I am concerned on dry wood nothing beats carbide for roughing but admit the sharp traditional tool to shear scrape will give a better finish. As far as losing skills. People use to dig ditches by hand with a shovel and then someone invented a backhoe. And that's my 2 cents
Al

[richard shelby]

I depend heavily on my only carbide cutter, an ez-wood finisher with a round insert,mainly for roughing bowls. I turn about 100 a year. For finishing I switch to a gouge, scraper, etc. in HSS. The advantage is, of course, more turning and less sharpening. Carbide is essential when turning inlay with stone like turquoise, chrysocolla, brass, etc. That simply eats up a a good HSS tool. Lately I have started sharpening carbide cutters with a diamond hone. I think of it as using technology when appropriate to enhance the art of turning.