Are carbide tools causing us to lose skills in turning?

[Prashun Patel]

It's not that hard to learn to use traditional tools. What's hard is learning good design.

The difference between good and great turning is in the form and presentation of the wood.

its not the tool that does this.

[Brice Rogers]

I would like to add another thought to what John said. There are raised lip carbide cutters that, in addition to being used as scrapers, can also be used as bevel rubbing cutting tools. However, in order to use the carbide cutters in that manner, you would need to have the requisite skills to make bevel rubbing cuts.

Bill, a couple of months ago I made a knock-off of the Hunter Hercules tool that uses the raised lip carbide cutter. As you may know, the end of it is angled or tipped forward to make it less aggressive. I tried it inside of a bowl and initially wasn't that impressed. I thought that it was still pretty aggressive and it gave me tear out. But I thought for hogging a HF, that it might work okay.

Then a couple of days ago I tried it on a redwood platter. Redwood is soft wood and can give a moderate amount of tear out. This time I both rotated the tool and positioned it to rub the bevel and to give a true shearing cut. The results were pretty good and I was impressed. So, I agree with you that bevel rubbing cuts can come out well.

I am contemplating trying to do a bevel rub cut with my square flat carbide scrapers as an experiment. I'm wondering if anyone has mastered that on anything but small diameter spindles. I'm concerned about a significant catch. I have semi-mastered using a skew in the shearing/slicing mode on spindles but gave up trying to use it on larger diameter pieces. I'm wondering if the same thing would hold true with the small 0.4" square carbide cutters.

[Bill Boehme]

Brice, you certainly should be concerned about getting a catch because it will be difficult to avoid catching a corner or losing bevel contact. Besides that, the flat topped carbide cutters would be equivalent to using a dull gouge.

[glenn bradley]

Speaking as someone who does not turn often and who does not consider himself a turner; I am able to get results quickly with 2 or 3 carbide tools with a minimum of skill :-). Obviously I don’t do anything too sophisticated. But for my occasional needs they seem ideal. They’re like a Festool Domino for turners; Quick and reasonably full proof with a minimum of practice.

[Randy Heinemann]

No to the original question. I started turning about a year ago and didn't want to initially invest in nor take the time and effort to develop the sharpening skills required for HSS tools so I bought mostly carbide insert tools with a HSS skew and a dovetail chisel for specific reasons related to what I was planning on doing.

It's possible, or maybe even likely, that, as I develop my turning skills, I will invest in a bowl gouge (or gouges) since I my focus is bowls. However, carbide tools were a good way to get started quickly and I find that I can, in fact, get a good finish off the lathe if I'm careful and take light passes as final steps. I imagine I still sand more than a turner who has developed skills with a bowl gouge, but I'm satisfied for now. Even though I do like turning, I also like all kinds of woodworking and don't intend to spend the majority of time turning.

I believe that I am learning basics about turning with the carbide tools and, as I feel I need to expand my skills, it's possible some HSS tools are in my future.

[David Delo]

Back in 2011 when all I did was 'flat-work" my daughter asked me to finish off a veneered table-top that didn't have a post or legs. At that time I had just about every known to mankind woodworking tool but no lathe or any lathe tool accessory. Just so happened that that about that time I attended an auction and picked up a Delta Midi lathe with extension for 50 bucks that I thought would fit the bill to finish that project. Bought a couple of the EZ wood tools and went to work. Needless to say, got bit by the sight of the wood spinning round & round and have fallen into the vortex for good. Can't tell you the last time the table saw, joiner, planer or router table etc. etc. etc. has been turned on but it's been more than several years. Say all of that to say this, if it wasn't for the carbide tools in the beginning to finish this table with pretty much zero lathe skills, I would have never wanted to continue learning the lathe. I've since learned to sharpen traditional tools and invested in the "proper" equipment to get the best results. I think I did a pretty decent job on this project and she never asked me if I did this job with Thompson, D-way, Sorby or carbide cutting tools.
DML1.jpgNT1.jpgNT2.jpgNT3.jpg

[roger wiegand]

This discussion seems to hearken back to the scraper vs bevel edge (eg gouge, skew) tool discussion that was au courant back when I started turning. My answer is still the same, use what works for you. I've just started turning again after a ~15 year hiatus so have not gotten up to speed on the new tools, but it looks as though the new generation of carbide tools are just scrapers that seldom need sharpening and are never truly sharp-- I hope I'm right about that, as it will save me hundreds of dollars in new tool purchases!

Certainly the final product is what matters, but I'm much happier with pieces where I achieve a finished surface right off the tool rather than as the result of extensive sanding-- whether or not the viewer of the piece can tell how I got there. Irrational, but there it is. (also, a rare accomplishment for me)

[John K Jordan]

This discussion seems to hearken back to the scraper vs bevel edge (eg gouge, skew) tool discussion that was au courant back when I started turning. My answer is still the same, use what works for you. I've just started turning again after a ~15 year hiatus so have not gotten up to speed on the new tools, but it looks as though the new generation of carbide tools are just scrapers that seldom need sharpening and are never truly sharp-- I hope I'm right about that, as it will save me hundreds of dollars in new tool purchases!

I remember that. At one time no respectable or professional turner would be caught using a scraper!

This was mentioned several times earlier in this thread, I think, but there is another type of carbide tool that is quite sharp, doesn't need sharpening, and can make nearly flawless bevel-rubbing cuts. Mike Hunter has an extensive line of these, I've seen tools with similar cutters from a guy in England, and some from Harrison Specialties look similar from the photos. I have one called an "Eliminator" that Craft Supplies used to sell and the Vermec uses one on their excellent sphere jig (not a good photo - I need to get out the macro lens!):

vermec_cutter.jpg

This type of tool and cutter can be used as a cutting tool or a scraper (and make excellent hollowing tools). Turner John Lucas teaches an introductory class for novices where the only tool used is a Hunter tool! I just finished another squarish platter that required "cutting air" on thin edges and this one was made from a brittle wood that chipped if you looked at it sideways. I used the Hunter Hercules tool entirely for this and the finish cuts were clean with no edge chipping with light cuts. I'll post a picture as soon as I get the final finish on it.

I bought tested some flat-topped carbide Easy Wood tools at one time and while they were fine and maybe even good for roughing the surface was terrible in some woods and simply unsatisfactory (to me) for some other things. There was tearout that would probably require 100 or 80 grit sand paper to remove. I can't live like that! (I gave them away) If the cutter was kept sharp with diamond hones it might be better but they are still scrapers, not usually useful in many circumstances (to me).

Certainly the final product is what matters, but I'm much happier with pieces where I achieve a finished surface right off the tool rather than as the result of extensive sanding-- whether or not the viewer of the piece can tell how I got there. Irrational, but there it is. (also, a rare accomplishment for me)

One thing the reduced sanding can get you, depending on the design of the piece, is "crisper", detail! It's very difficult to preserve detail with coarse sand paper. I often use things like fine grooves and coves with crisp edges which I want to stay very crisp (until l ease the sharp corners with maybe 1000 or 1200 grit paper.) I sometimes use such detail on bowls and platters but especially on spindles:

Ornaments_PC244176es.jpg oven_stick_handles_both_IMG.jpg crops_comp_texturing_.jpg

When this was discussed once before there was a "proving" that the flat-topped carbide cutters could be used in a bevel-rubbing mode to cut nice coves and detail on spindles. I watched these but what I saw looked like terrible tearout with no closeups of the surface at the end. I suspect as carbide tools evolve they will be more useful (to me) but for now I'll stick to my gouges and skews. As you say, what ever works!

JKJ

[Reed Gray]

The debate about scrapers will probably go on forever. There are a few exceptions, but most tools are only as good as the user. Some times learning good technique and proper presentation makes the biggest difference. So, a few points.... Nothing wrong with using any scraper, and if you know what you are doing with them you can get as good of a surface from them as you can from a gouge. The comments I get after demoing how I use scrapers vary from 'I may have to rethink scrapers' to 'that is down right scarey,' and I've never seen them used like that.' Oh, yes, you can do bevel rubbing cuts with them too. Carbide cutting tips can be touched up, but from what I have heard, they never go back to 'good as new'. I have been told that you can not turn a burr on carbide, which I was told was impossible on M2, and the video about the StewMac scrapers the guy says that you can't burnish a burr on his scrapers. He probably used a standard burnishing tool and not a micro grained carbide burnishing rod. Well, they never met me.... I have not yet gotten a chance to try to burnish a burr on a carbide cutter, so jury is out on that one. The thicker cupped carbide tools can do bevel rubbing cuts, no problem, and that is easy to understand. With the thinner flat cutters, it could be done, but given the very thin/small bevel, it could be catchy. I would not try it with one of the square ones except on the outside of a bowl. On the inside, only a round one. I think they could work as shear scrapers, but the cutter sizes are a bit small for my tastes. The sharpness of them is generally more sharp than most of our tool metals. This is most likely because they are more polished. The high grits on M42 and V10 do cut more cleanly, but don't last for heavy roughing. The extra hardness of the micro grain carbides lets them last a lot longer. I am amazed that no one has a mandrill for the round carbide cutters so you can mount them on a drill and spin them against a very fine diamond hone. You would probably need to touch both top and bevel. Now, I am thinking that might create a burr..... I still don't own any...

robo hippy

[richard shelby]

"I am amazed that no one has a mandrill for the round carbide cutters so you can mount them on a drill and spin them against a very fine diamond hone"

I tried that with a Dremel arbor, the kind used to mount a sanding disk. The results were less than spectacular because the arbor was slightly off size and the cutter was out-of-round slightly. However, with a proper arbor it might just work. Lately, I just rub the flat on a diamond hone with acceptable (not as good as new) results. Still looking for a mandrill or arbor of the right size.

[Randy Heinemann]

"I am amazed that no one has a mandrill for the round carbide cutters so you can mount them on a drill and spin them against a very fine diamond hone"

I tried that with a Dremel arbor, the kind used to mount a sanding disk. The results were less than spectacular because the arbor was slightly off size and the cutter was out-of-round slightly. However, with a proper arbor it might just work. Lately, I just rub the flat on a diamond hone with acceptable (not as good as new) results. Still looking for a mandrill or arbor of the right size.

You can "resharpen" the flat carbide inserts by removing them from the tool and honing the flat side on whatever diamond stone you wish. You don't need a mandrel. I've done it with mine and the result is that it is sharper than it was before honing the edge. I don't know whether it is sharper than it was new or if it just seems really sharp because, before it was honed, it was dull. I don't think you can do that with the cupped carbide inserts.

[Dave Jain]

I started turning as a teenager,marriage, kids ,work , etc got in the way for some time. Started bowl making again after retirement. Bought a grinding set up,spent a lot of time trying to sharpen tools. Happened to see the carbide yools, bought a set of four. Best thing I ever did. Now I spend my time turning not sharpening. Learning how to use them is the key. I get a finish that need a little sanding with 220 and love got a finished bowl. I think part of the problem is not wanting to give up the old ways. Like giving up cursive, learning computers,using calculator and the every body gets a participation. I've got a bunch of hss tools for sale cheap.
Sorry if I offended any one but that's just my take on it,I lovey carbide tools.

[David Walser]

Dave -- I'm glad you love your carbide tools. I have carbide tools in my arsenal and use them regularly. However, you're fooling yourself if you believe carbide tools are a perfect substitute for traditional tools. For most woods and in most situations, a bevel supported cut simply leaves a better surface than does a scraping cut. Also, there are some things that simply cannot be turned with a carbide tool. For example, take a look at the finials Cindy Drozda turns. Those fine, crisp, details are made possible by the very long, thin, bevel of her vortex tool (or her detail gouge before she started using the vortex tool). Carbide tools simply don't fit in those tight spaces.

So, keep using your carbide tools! They have opened woodturning up to many who might have been dissuaded by the need to master traditional tools. That's a very good thing. For most items, it's simply a matter of personal preference. Once a bowl has been sanded, it's impossible to tell what tools were used to make it. So, who should care whether it was made with carbide or traditional tools? I certainly don't! What I care about is the beauty of the wood, the feel of the curve in my hands, etc. You, and your carbide tools, would be welcome in my shop. I hope you'd welcome me and my traditional tools in yours.

[Edward Weber]

Well said David Waiser
Too many want to square off into their own camps and argue about one or the other, as if that's the only choice. Personally I don't use them, I do have some replaceable tip hollowing tools but no "carbide turning tools".
Whatever tool gets the job done for you is usually the right answer, though there are major differences in the way they cut that can not be dismissed. These differences in edge geometry, edge presentation angle, bevel cutting (shear) or scraping all contribute to the process. It's not an either/or situation.
JMHO

[Randy Heinemann]

Like all woodworking, the most enjoyment comes from making things (for me at least) whether the "things" are bowls, hollow forms, furniture, cabinets, or just something like a jig for my shop. The tools use are just the means to get that satisfaction. If someone feels comfortable using certain tools and gets the result he/she wants, then that's the tools they should use. I started out turning about 3-4 years ago and used exclusively carbide insert tools because I didn't want to learn about sharpening gouges, etc. or buy more equipment and jigs to sharpen the HSS tools. Little by little I wasn't satisfied with the result on some pieces and realized that, with a minimal investment in my already owned Tormek (which I never used for much of anything else) I could sharpen my bowl gouges quickly and with excellent results. I have way too many turning tools, but I use my HSS gouges and scrapers most of the time now, but still use the carbide tools when I have some problems I can't seem to solve on a piece with my gouges. I have always felt that everyone gets comfortable with tools that they use frequently and, over time, they get the best results with those tools, whether they are "accepted" best result tools or not. So, why not use what makes woodworking and turning fun and satisfying.

To Dave Jain - Having said that, if you already own good HSS steel tools and sharpening tools, I'd keep them and use the tools when they might work best or if you can't get a result you want. To me, it's the same issue that has come up for years in woodworking with hand tools versus power tools. Use the best tool available to you for the job. At least that's what gives me the most satisfaction with a hobby that really is all about satisfaction and good results.