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Thread: Neander starter tools

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    Lancaster, PA
    Posts
    75

    Neander starter tools

    Hey all,

    Right now I have been assembling my tool collection to build furniture around the house, and to hopefully make a little money to help offset the cost of tools/materials. Essentially, I have my normal 9-5 job, but would like to do woodworking as a hobby/weekend project type stuff.

    I've yet to build anything substantial because I don't really have quality enough tools to do fine woodworking. It is mostly bargain stuff off of Amazon that is almost not even worth the materials they're made out of!

    I am going to be putting up a partition wall in my finished basement that will give me an isolated work space of 8' x 17'. I would really like to begin investing into quality tools that make better quality builds, and I would like to get some of the experts here to give me tips on what I should start with. I am a hybrid woodworker that'll be mainly using a table saw, cordless drills, drill press, and router table as my primary electric tools. I would like to stick with hand tools for the planing/jointing, mortise/tenon, dovetails, etc (basically everything else). Here is the list of what I was thinking of getting, so let me know if I missed anything or if you think I should go in a different direction...

    Chisels - Stanley Sweethearts (already own)
    Dovetail saw - Veritas Fine Cut $70
    Crosscut saw - Veritas carcass saw $80
    #5 1/2 - Woodriver $200
    #7 - Woodriver $310

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    1,209
    No experience with the woodriver planes, so will not comment there. I would suggest the Veritas standard dovetail saw over the fine cut.

  3. If you are going to buy new planes, I would recommend getting Veritas ones. Maybe the low angle jack and jointer. They are similar in price to wood river and probably nicer.

    If you want stanley style, and money is an issue, you should be able to find pretty good used ones for far less than what you'll pay here. My #7's have been in the $40-60 range in general, but you may have to spend more if you are in a rush.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    SE Michigan
    Posts
    3,222
    If you don't already have these, I'd add to your list a low angle block plane, a couple of marking gauges, a mortise chisel (1/4"), mallet, and perhaps a shoulder plane.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Edmond, Oklahoma
    Posts
    1,749
    Scott,

    I am with Daniel, if you aren't in a hurry, you can find old Stanley planes for a lot less money than what you list for the Woodriver planes. They will probably need a little tune up, but if you just get them to good user condition, it won't take a lot of time to tune them up.

    Sometimes if you hit the right garage sale, or flea market you can buy one for $10 to $35, and if you buy a Stanley Bailey made between 1910 and 1930 in restorable condition, you can't go too far wrong. Restored to good user condition they are superb planes.

    You will need to study up on the old Stanley planes, however, to know what you are looking at. To do that type in "Stanley Bailey Type Study." RexMill is one of the best in my view.

    Avoid ones with cracks in the body, frog, or lever cap. A bit of rust is OK, but make sure it is not rusted to the point that you can't easily remove all the screws. Avoid deep pitting, especially on the iron. There are several posts on this site, if you do a search on restoring the Older Planes.

    Parts can be found on that auction site, but be warned, if the plane needs more than one part, the parts can ruin the bargain you got on the original deal, because parts can be too expensive.

    Regards,

    Stew
    Last edited by Stew Denton; 11-23-2017 at 9:15 PM.

  6. Here is my 2 cents for what it's worth, I am on the beginner end of the spectrum and have been working with hand tools for only a couple years. I own and regularly use Woodriver, Veritas and Lie Nielson. Frankly, I like the Woodriver stuff. No, their stuff is not as good as Veritas or Lie Nielson - my opinion. Biggest gripe is the quality of the iron. I find there to be a noticable difference between Woodriver and Lie Nielson A2 and even more with Veritas PM V-11 (I really like this stuff). If you can pickup the Woodriver planes on their 20% off sale (last month if I recall correctly) they are one heck of a bargain, iron and all. If you get them, I don't think you will regret it. They are a solid value and work well. Your list looks good to my eyes. I use the veritas saws every day - again good saws solid value.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    Lancaster, PA
    Posts
    75
    You guys rock! I will take a look at seeing what Stanley's I can pickup. I live in a town with one of the largest Amish populations, so I am sure I could find some classic planes at local antique shops or garage sales.

    I appreciate all of the great advice and tips.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Wolgemuth View Post
    Here is my 2 cents for what it's worth, I am on the beginner end of the spectrum and have been working with hand tools for only a couple years. I own and regularly use Woodriver, Veritas and Lie Nielson. Frankly, I like the Woodriver stuff. No, their stuff is not as good as Veritas or Lie Nielson - my opinion. Biggest gripe is the quality of the iron. I find there to be a noticable difference between Woodriver and Lie Nielson A2 and even more with Veritas PM V-11 (I really like this stuff). If you can pickup the Woodriver planes on their 20% off sale (last month if I recall correctly) they are one heck of a bargain, iron and all. If you get them, I don't think you will regret it. They are a solid value and work well. Your list looks good to my eyes. I use the veritas saws every day - again good saws solid value.
    Agreed, but given that a veritas low angle jack with PM V-11 is only $257 or so. For a only plane I own plane I would probably take low angle and PM V-11 for $50-70 more. I'd probably even strongly consider passing on a jointer for a while if budget was an issue, you can get by for quite a while with just a good jack.

    That said almost all of my planes are used stanley, millers falls, or union that I've picked up at flea markets and estate sales. And that is generally my preference: I can get 5-6 different good planes with my limited dollars that way

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    twomiles from the "peak of Ohio
    Posts
    12,120
    You are welcome to come over to Bellefontaine, OH, and visit my Dungeon Shop. You are free to try any and all hand tools in the shop.....including both Stanley and Millers Falls hand planes. Handsaws, chisels, drills.....whatever. I tuned all up into very good users. PM for details......

    Always ready to pay forward as best as I can. (IF you do come over, bring along a camera...)

    #3 bench plane: Millers Falls No. 8
    #4 bench plane: Both Stanley, and Millers Falls
    #5 Jack planes: Again, Stanley and Millers Falls
    There is a #5-1/4, a #5-1/2, a #6c, two #7s and a #8

    Handsaws: Atkins, Disstons, and a Richardson Brothers...crosscut and rip
    Mitre Box: have several, main one is a Langdon #75.

    Just a sample.....

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Stone Mountain, GA
    Posts
    751
    I'll just stick with bench planes here, because if you plan to joint and thickness by hand these will be the tools you may spend the most time with. You will want at least 3 planes: a jack plane, try plane, and a smoothing plane. I don't think it's a good idea to try to combine any of those roles into one tool.

    The jack plane is for roughing cuts- taking out high spots and twist, removing unwanted thickness, etc. It needs a heavily cambered cutting edge. This plane does not need to be as finely tuned as the other two, so you can go with a cheaper or unrefined tool. It is usually a medium length plane, about 14 inches, like a #5. I would not get a 5-1\2 for a jack plane, the extra width is not useful and they are more expensive, and harder to find used. Just get a regular #5, or consider a transitional or a traditional wooden jack plane. I use an old Sargent transitional I found at a flea market for $10. I would not be looking at a new plane for this role, there are too many old tools in good enough shape that can be had for cheap.

    The try plane is longer (22-24) inches and is used after the jack plane, taking a medium to heavy shaving and making faces and edges perfectly flat, with minimal or no tearout. This is probably the most important tool for dimensioning wood by hand. A #7 or #8 will work for this (a 6 could as well, though a bit short). I use an old English wooden try plane that I love...wooden planes glide over the wood a bit easier than metal. In any case, this is a tool you should be more selective about than the jack...you don't want to buy a basketcase. It can be a lot of work to fix an out of flat sole on a long metal plane. So it may make sense to buy this one new, or pay more for a known good used plane.

    The smoothing plane is for final finishing of a surface, removing any remaining tearout, flattening/jointing small parts. It is usually a short plane (#3, #4, or #4-1\2) set for a thin shaving. The thin shavings require more accuracy in the sole and frog, so this plane needs to be at the highest level of tune. So, it does make sense to get a new "premium" plane, if you can afford it, but since these planes are small it is feasible to tune up an old vintage plane into a very nice tool...much easier than on a #7 or 8. Mine is a Lie-Nielsen #4. I like it a lot, but did not like the A2 blade (too chippy), so I replaced it with a Hock O1 blade, which is very nice. Most people seem happy with the LN A2 blades though, so keep that in mind. A vintage Bailey or Bedrock will make a nice smoother as well. Veritas and Wood River are also very good, I'm sure.

    It is sometimes nice to have a fourth plane for jointing edges on long boards. I use an old #8, for example. The try plane can do this job however, and I would hold off on getting a dedicated jointer plane until you've used the try plane a lot. It's another plane that needs to be in very good tune, and they aren't cheap unless you luck out with an old one.

    For all of these planes, I recommend standard 45° angle bevel down designs (like a typical Bailey) with a chipbreaker. This arrangement has the most versatility for the least amount of fuss and expense (no changing blades to plane a different board, etc). Learn to use the chipbreaker to control tearout with all three planes- it takes some practice and experimentation but has a big payoff - the ability to take heavy shavings without tearout makes hand-dimensioning much less of a burden. There are reams of information about it if you search this forum.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Longview WA
    Posts
    27,347
    Blog Entries
    1
    Howdy Scott and welcome to the Creek.

    You will spend a lot less on tools if you can purchase good previously owned tools at a good price.

    Trying to pick planes for someone else is impossible. What works for me isn't going to necessarily be the combination that works for you. If you work on larger projects, a #5-1/2 can be useful. If you work a lot of rough lumber a #5 or even a #5-1/4 may be of more use for the scrub work of getting rid of saw marks and high spots. Other considerations are the size of the user. Larger handed folks might prefer a big smoother like a #4-1/2, a jack like the 5-1/2 and the #8 for a jointer. Otherwise the common combination is #4, #5 & a #7.

    What all these numbers mean can be found at another site:

    http://www.supertool.com

    This is the 'front page' of the site. You will want to navigate to the Blood & Gore page to bookmark. If you want to learn about tools in general, subscribe to his monthly tool list. He sells tools, but much of my knowledge of different tools comes from reading and looking at the pictures on his monthly for sale list.

    Someone mentioned Johny Kleso's site, Rexmill. It might be worth archiving his site if you can. Mr. Kleso posted in the SMC Classifieds about selling all of his old tools and such.

    http://www.rexmill.com/planes101/typing/typing.htm

    This is a study of the changes over the years in the manufacturing of Stanley/Bailey planes.

    Then there is the 'secret' archives here on SMC:

    http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...al-wisdom-FAQs

    This is another treasure trove of knowledge.

    Oh, one of the first planes a person should get is a low angle block plane. If your hand is at all on the large size you may consider a #65 type plane. For me this is one of my favorite planes even though my hands are not large. One reason is it can be used as a shooting plane and the extra width helps. Other wise a #60 type plane is a good choice. The low angle block plane is a very handy plane for end grain clean up and breaking sharp corners on milled work. They are also useful in the fitting of some joinery and molding.

    BTW, these kinds of decisions are a bit difficult for me so to make it easier my system is to have at least one of each size plane.

    Plane Wall.jpg

    That isn't all of them. It might be time to start thinning the heard.

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 11-24-2017 at 2:15 PM. Reason: spelling
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post

    BTW, these kinds of decisions are a bit difficult for me so to make it easier my system is to have at least one of each size plane.

    Plane Wall.jpg

    That isn't all of them. It might be time to start thinning the heard.

    jtk
    Jim,

    I like your style. BTW it is a sickness. My name is Jim, I'm a......

    The OP didn't mention if he will prep stock with machines or not. Nor did he mention his sharpening kit. Those two factors have more to do with what planes to get than any other. Grinder with water stones will allow a different kit than no grinder with oil stones as does machine prep.

    ken

    ken

  13. #13
    I am a beginner, so I was thinking of the things I've purchased that I love and use all the time, and it brought to mind my square. I bought the Veritas 6 inch double square and I love it and use it every time I go down to the bench.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    South West Ontario
    Posts
    1,502
    The electric tools alone will fill your space. The table saw could take almost the full width. Perhaps the 8x17' space is just for hand tools?
    Buying good old tools can happen but I think the Amish will have cleared out the good old ones already. It all about timing; getting lucky can take far too long in my area.
    Buying new works if you buy the gems. You will never regret the money. So my 2 cents is the Lee Valley large shoulder plane. I have the old steel, it holds a really sharp edge. Fancy steel is wasted as it's not as sharp and you are tuning not planing many board feet.

    As for making money.........as a beginner with no client list or furniture picture collection.........it's just an excuse to buy tools. Just ask the very best on here how 'easy' it is to make money working wood. I can make money designing and building a complete pharmacy. That is about a LOT of sheet goods, melamine, hardware, and a ton of space. Real wood is delegated to door, window trim and skirting boards. That's all they will pay for.

    I've designed and built other stuff too but people mostly won't pay for it. Blame Ikea?

    Round here lot's of Amish get into wood work because they are Amish, not because they can work wood!
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Longview WA
    Posts
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    Blog Entries
    1
    I am a beginner, so I was thinking of the things I've purchased that I love and use all the time, and it brought to mind my square.
    My small try square almost lives on my bench. Other tools that are always used include one of my marking knives and a wheel gauge. Another is a small paint brush with the bristles shortened. This is used to knock the dust and shavings off of a plane after it is used. My pencils are also always around. There is one regular #1 pencil. For most a #2 would be fine. Next are two carpenter pencils. One has a blunt point produced by a carpenter's pencil sharpener the other has its lead shaved to a fine edge for following lines scribed by a marking gauge.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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