What happens when you are down with the flu for ten days or if something were to take you away from the business for a period? Does the business keep rolling for your staff (if any)?
Contributor
What happens when you are down with the flu for ten days or if something were to take you away from the business for a period? Does the business keep rolling for your staff (if any)?
Member
If I am out for 10 days, I don't have the flu..... I'm dead!
It is usually myself and sometimes one other guy in the shop. 2-3 guys in the field, but we have had all in the shop a couple times.
They know what to do if I am gone, and if they don't, they know they have to put their "big boy pants" on and figure it out.
I don't remember the last time I was out unscheduled. Many years.
Member
Wow, Peter... that sums up exactly how my father ran his company when he started in the 70’s and how I still run the family business now. We pride ourselves doing everything in house, and our customers do care I think. It’s a very rare and somewhat “novel” business model these days. I don’t know how many times a salesman has called me foolish because we build our own doors, run our own mouldings etc. But its the way WE do business, and will continue to as well. I couldn’t have said it better myself.Originally Posted by peter gagliardi
Andrew J. Coholic
Member
Personally, In the 23 years Ive been full time working, I have been off sick less than a week - and I once went 9 years straight without a holiday. You work unless you absolutely cannot, then you make sure your guys step up, lol. Having excellent employees who care about the business as much as you do, certainly helps.
Andrew J. Coholic
Contributor
When I had a 4 man crew we would take on the millwork, doors, cabinetry and finishing for custom homes. Usually 3 or 4 houses per year and at times some commercial work. The few times I outsourced anything I was disappointed. We always tried to keep the quality high - dovetail drawers, ply interiors, 1” thick doors, top hardware, 1/4” solid wood banding on Euro cabs and full inset when doing faceframes and grain matching everything. Customers notice this after awhile and word gets around. A customer that we did cabinets for 15 years ago called me a while back and wants interior doors to match now. She was raving about the attention to detail we put into her project and excited to have us doing her doors.
this was just simple contemporary cabinetry we did for her and not a super high dollar project. It’s pretty hard to match grain when you outsource doors.
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We did outsource installation and there were problems with that. Mostly schedules. I use Cabnetware software and would say that worked out well. It saved a lot of mistakes and allowed me more time in the shop. I still use that software to cut-list house doors. Like Peter and Andrew I enjoy the work and thankful to have been able to make a living at it.
Now, working mostly by myself with a little part time help I usually do the minimum drawing for the customer, lay out projects on rods and make hand written cutlists that only I understand and would be a disaster to hand to employees.
Member
Andrew and Peter, I wish our local economy could support what you do. I'd like to watch you guys work for a week. Hell, I'd like to watch any of you work for a week. I started my cabinet business with a table saw, planer and chop saw. I've never worked in a "cabinet shop". I started building cabinets after helping build 2 sets of cabinets with a home contractor. After that, it was in my head. It's been a long learning process, including the business side of things.
As for hand drawing versus program? Everyone I come across wants rendered pictures. Or they make change after change. I can't imagine redrawing by hand. When I was drawing by hand, I made formulas in excel so my parts would be right for drawers and doors - screw a bunch math in my head, I'd go insane from the tedium. I didn't do it by hand long enough for it to come from memory. The computer also allowed me to take my cabinets to another level without fear of mistake. A kitchen like the one Joe posted above I could draw and have cutlists in the shop in 15 minutes. That's cutlists for and molding lists, door lists, everything. I have a valid argument because I've done it both ways, but if what you're doing works for you, then by all means carry on. I'm not here to change anyone's process - I'm here to learn.
-Lud
Member
They build the doors however I want. I just did a quick count in the catalog of raised panel doors. There are 126 different styles to choose from. I've ordered custom also. I've designed passage way doors keeping to the golden ratio in the dividing up the panel with stiles and rails - they built it no problem.
I would build my own if I had the equipment to even remotely compete with their product.
-Lud
Contributor
I'm completely aware of the 20+ (probably more like 30) years of self employment and never being off, no holidays, no sick time unless your so sick you can't move, etc. Its the burden of self employment. Its hard on relationships, hard on family.
For me personally I quit wearing it as a badge of honor a long time ago. Like I said in another post, it would seem as hard as we work and the quality provided, I would much rather move my business to a standard model if at all possible. Perhaps one day off a weekend, not chewing your nails down to the root (of better yet spending a few hours in the shop) on holidays, never going on a week or two's vacation.
I was literally just having this conversation with SO's dad yesterday He was a workaholic his entire career. Was one of the lucky people who loved his job (maybe more than his family) and now in his seventies missing so much time with his family, and the subsurface stress when he was forced to take time, is one of his greatest regrets regardless of how well he provided.
Again, I fall more in the Justin camp. Our customers want 3D renders, and changes are endless. I use to really enjoy drafting an entire home and its contents on the table with my ancient K&E drafting machine. Not happenin' now.
My question about time off was more related to the rest of the shop. I know another local shop that operates in this manner. All math is in one guys (the owner who has built so many boxes its like tieing his shoes) head, when he has help they will never be able to operate at his speed even though they know HOW because he does all the math for every job because its faster and he trusts it.
Now that he's older and would like to sell or hand off the business to someone else, its basically worth only the value of the equipment at auction because there is no business without his brain there to generate the lists.
As said. Carry on with whatever works for you in your shop. I'm in hopes to achieve a middle of the road balance. Processes and procedures that allow overlap of ability and responsibility right through to the design and cutlist generation. A reasonable work week. And i can't imagine the V word.
Member
Mark, your post illustrates vividly the pitfalls of self employment.
At 49 years old, and having 4 kids, the oldest being 15 this year, I find myself at a crossroads.
I love what I do. I get paid enough- though I seem to always try chasing more.
Problem is, my oldest is 3 years from graduating high school, and I really do not have a ton of memories or photos of those years- I have worked 7 days steadily through with an occasional vacation to appease and stay married.
Something happened 15 years ago when I became a father, like a switch in my brain went on, and I turned into some type of robot. Probably happens to every parent, I don't know, but suddenly, no amount of money on earth, in the business, or stashed away seemed sufficient to relax and enjoy my time with them.
It became a job, a very serious job. My wife and I decided we wanted the old fashioned traditional family, where Dad worked, and Mom worked even harder at home raising 4 great kids. We decided we would live on whatever I, or my business could provide. Anybody in this trade, knows what that looks like.
We aren't poor, but we are pretty solidly lower middle class I suppose. My wife and kids do not want for much, but.....
I have a hard time saying no to work, and feeling like I am letting a customer down, but I have started slowly to realize that none of them have, or probably would sacrifice family time for me and mine.
So, today, I am home, to enjoy some time.
I hope other's do the same.
Member
I have two kids, young-ish, at age 3 and 6. After we started our family, I was not able to work weekends and evenings as I once did. My wife (who has a career) works many weekends and also shift work during the week. I became a full time dad, and yes my business has suffered. I figure in a few more years IO can return to working when I would like to. Yes, I love what I do, and like my father before me (who I thought was nuts growing up, as he worked 12 to 14 hours every day) I am the most relaxed and at peace in the shop. If I had more time, I’d choose to go to work more, not because it is necessary but because I want to.
Anyhow, every one who is self employed is doing this for different reasons. I always felt that if I can keep things going, doing things my way (and enjoying each and every day) pay everyone and put something in my pocket, I will carry on. Making money isn’t the reason I am in business, it is because I love woodworking and the whole enterprise of it. But of course making money is necessary to have the shop, etc.
Some of the shops near me that just make melamine boxes, and source out everything else.. everything... They are financially way further ahead than I will be, but that would be a death sentence for me. I want to be a woodworker, not a manager. I know to many that will sound crazy. But, it is what it is.
My dad is 87 and still works about 6 hours a day in the shop he built (which I sold to another guy, they have 3 or 4 employees and him). Not because he has to, but he loves it. We were never rich, but we lived comfortably and that was enough. Being truly happy is worth a lot of $$ in my opinion.
Andrew J. Coholic
Guest
And I'm in the office working on drawings and estimates on a sunday...
Then I'm going to finish the cleaning that wasn't accomplished on Friday because time management and stepping up when the dude in charge is up to his ass in a problem is sooo difficult for the employees.
No kids here, a wife, a dog, a cat, and a tank full of fish. Just to parrot other's experiences, I work a lot. I'm currently over 3000 hours for the year, and I'll likely be around 3300 by the time the next 21 days pass. You have to, that's the nature of small business. Business's are either growing, or dying. On a small scale where you're pulled 20 different directions, it's hard on marriages, those who don't have the drive to build a business themselves don't understand the drive, the need, and addiction for making it successful. I've been married just five years. My wife hasn't seen the lean times, she hasn't seen behind with no real work on the horizon and nothing in the account wondering how I'm going to make pay the rent. The slowest she's seen things is "occupied", where we've got 40hrs worth of work for a few weeks, but my time gets burned up fixing broken things because we just came off six months of hammering through projects. Or finally getting around to something that has been bothering me in the shop. Plus getting ahead of the next job by restocking some of the parts we keep on hand for the crunch times. It's a never ending battle.
For a two man shop, we crank out a lot I feel, but it's getting to be too much for me to handle. I have too many hats to wear.
Supply officer, drafting, bidding, accounting, billing, equipment acquisition, maintenance, shop management, then I still have stuff to build.
My number of customers is slowly growing, they themselves are growing, and things are getting out of hand. I need to add more people, but to be honest, I'm scared I won't be able to keep them busy, even though I'm working at least sixty hour weeks. I could easily add one more person, but I need someone talented that I can hand something off to and if there's any questions it's because it's my fault the print wasn't clear enough.
I talk to a fair amount of local shop owners. The smaller guys, we tend to rely on one another when you're short a few hinges, or slides, or "hey, can I buy a sheet of something?". Some of the medium sized shops, where they've got 8-10 guys, all say the same thing. They never made more money than when there was just three or four people. I often wonder why that is? Is it because they added the bodies, but not the equipment and space? Is it from poor floor management? I need an employee to be responsible for at least $100k worth of work for them to be a worthwhile investment. Some are better than others for sure. Somewhere in there I need to turn this into a job with people I can trust to handle things and I can take off some of those hats. Hopefully take some time off as well so I can stay married. I'm eighteen years into doing this, thirteen on my own, and I don't know how many years I can maintain the pace I am.
Money isn't my sole drive for doing this. At least not up front. Long term I'm trying to build something I can retire from. Generally small business's aren't sold outright. Sometimes, but not usually. I've spent $245,588.50 on equipment with a replacement cost of $464,417.27 according to my spreadsheet. That's going to just get auctioned off, and if it were happen today I'd be lucky to get what I put into it even though I take very good care of my equipment. I'm patient and hunt for a lot of deals, but who knows what it'll actually sell for. I've dumped everything I could back into the business from day one. I don't live fancy, don't drive expensive vehicles, so each year the shop's income goes up, but my income stays pretty static. If my equipment value stays the same, $250k isn't going to do a lot of good for retirement. Better than nothing, but that doesn't buy much for years not working. That's leaves me with branding, and real estate. I'm not going to be the next Coke Marlboro, or Amazon, so nobody is going to be acquiring the brand. That has pretty much no value. That leaves real estate. I own the building personally and the company leases the space from me. The new building is far from paid for, but when it is, I want to use the rent from that to put up another similar sized building. Once that is occupied and stable, use the rent from that to either keep itself afloat and contribute to adding more space onto the current building. Hopefully when the time comes for me to pull the plug I can function off of the rent of both buildings, selling one and keeping the other, or just selling everything outright. I've got room to double the size of this building easily, do three more buildings about this size, and I own three residential lots I would like to build some spec houses on. I may sell off one or two of the commercial lots too. I don't know. If I had 40,000 sq/ft of rental space, that would be a decent income on it's own at a current value of ~$6/ft
Honestly, I've enjoyed building this company far more than anything this company has built. I still enjoy building stuff, but the challenge is long gone. The challenge is now how can I make this go easier, faster, and better. The business and management facets are so fulfilling for me. Woodworking is easy, doing it efficiently and effectively is the trick. Being what we have to draw from generally for employee candidates, equipment and moving towards automation is the only viable way to keep moving the ball forward and staying competitive.
Contributor
Well, your not alone. Guess where I am?
The constant mantra I have always heard through the years is that when your a one man show, you make nothing, two-three employees your staff makes more than you, four.. you start to make decent money. We were in the field at the time and were up to 5.5-6 and I would say a lot more work got done, but quality inevitably goes down (yet is still far above production outfits), and all you (at least I) wind up doing is being a fire extinguisher. You just go from station to station keeping people on track and answering problems.
Thats never been my want. I have always wanted to be in the work. Peter said he's 49, I am 50 this year, thank goodness never had kids (always working and never felt time was right). The business, and residual stress, ate the marriage nearly 10 years ago. Its a rough slog but at this point there arent many other options.
I remember watching a show that covered a huge shop in the north east, cant remember the details, where the shop owner refused to be in the office. Had a huge facility, and he had his own zone and couple guys and they worked right on the floor with the rest of the staff. Getting to that point would be nice. Someone else answering the phones, doing accounts payable and receivable, having some input in it all but being out on the floor.
I think my point is just that because its always been a 100 hour a week job doesnt necessarily mean thats the only option. But it requires us to test our comfort zones and routines. Just my 0.02. I know I cant keep it up forever. 20 years of field work, and 10 in the shop, my body is telling me to get smart.
Guest
I work in a small four man shop. A boss that does it all and waaaay to much of it, a full time builder, a full time painter that will glue up doors and sand finished boxes when we don’t have paint work for him, and me whom goes back and forth between building and installing. I hate installation work but I’m good at it. Plus if someone else botched the instal of my work I’d be peeved.
We build everything in house except drawer boxes. We instal all our own work. We do all our layout based off RO measurements we took ourself and renderer drawings off those and or drawings provided by a architect or designer. Mostly a combo of the two.
I love what I do and what I do because I love it not for the money. If I did something all day everyday just for money I’d loose my mind. I average 60hr weeks with the occasional lull of a couple back to back 40hr weeks because at my hourly rate I have to do so to bring home the income I desire. I am willing to work more hours to do what I love then less hours doing something a dread. Often I work six months straight of 6-70hr weeks. You had better love what you do or your not gonna make it.
If we outsourced everything or had computer this and computer that I would quickly find myself waking up in the morning not wanting to go to work. Let’s hope the boss keeps doing things the way he is and so I can continue doing things this way.
It’s nice to hear others are also doing this because they love it or at least also enjoy it and not just to make a buck. Often I think I’m pretty alone money not being my sole motivator.
Last edited by Patrick Walsh; 12-10-2017 at 2:59 PM.
Contributor
I dont mean to beat Justin's drum here but honestly, from someone who has come from mechanical pencil and drafting machine all the way to full computer 3D rendering, design, and output to the shop, I think your absolutely insane. (said nicely). You honestly just have to try it. A completely off the wall or odd ball job that you dont normally run through your shop, is a breeze. There is no "design on the fly" or figuring things out on the shop floor. (well maybe still a tiny bit for a single odd cab that is too time consuming to built from scratch in the computer). You walk up to the saw with a cut list 400 items long and just take the math out of the game. You just cut, and it comes out perfect. The only time it doesnt is when you go into autopilot and operator error cuts a part wrong. Marks 5/16 instead of 5/8 or marks the wrong side of 50" on the tape.
It doesnt take the personality or passion out of the process, it just eliminates the operator error that runs right up to the guy figuring the math in his head who misses a decimal place or makes a simple addition or subtraction error. There is nothing worse than running all your door material and then moving machinery to a different operation and having to go back and make a single door or two. Its a massive gouge on the margin.
If I honestly worked for me.. and I had a family, and jumped off on a car or truck payment, and was thinking of the future. I would be nervous. One heart attack, one, hernia, one incident in the shop, and its all shut down. It doesnt seem like a very smart way to run hence my aggressive move in a different direction (yet the same path).
When we just arbitrarily ignore advances in the industry out of routine it becomes less routine and more ritual. And ritual can be directly tied to insanity. lol
Guest
Sounds both good and bad to me.
There are times when you just don’t want to think about some mundane task that is esentilly redundant and the same thing you did the day before and the day before and the day before that so in and son.
On the other hand it’s all that thinking “figuring” that keeps me interested in my job. Without the figuring I would just get bored.
It will say the tool loving nerd in me does like the idea of a computer generated drawing cultist and all then having every machine in the shop fully automated. I do like perfection, I really really like perfection. I just want/need to be responsible for that perfection as apposed to some algorithm or robot saw.
FYI I’d give a body part for a fully automated t75 slider and t27 shaper. Not sure why considering the above. Maybe I would enjoy the antiquated manual versions of the above much more. Doubt it lol..
Each to his own. The good news for me is I just do what I’m told and am very happy doing exactly that. This is how my boss has done it and chances are will continue to do it. In the Ned it’s not up to me.
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