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Thread: Members and Contributors

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Ohio's Southern Coast
    Posts
    15
    I love this web-site for the all the great technical content and knowledge so many members willingly share to all. And the overall friendliness and civility of it too. And for reasons I can't fully explain I never took the 2-minutes to make a contribution. Until now. Keep up the good work mods!

  2. <rant>
    When I finally joined, I confess: for a long time, I was a lurker, an uncaring free-loader on the backs of the Contributors. (At the time, I wasn't able to do any woodworking and had no shop, so I didn't really feel at all guilty about sponging off the contributions of others.) When I joined, I remained a non-contirbuting member for a time, posting a bit to make what I felt was a decent contribution with a bit of value to the discourse.

    I might have gone on indefinitely as a non-contributing member if not for a pair of posts, in direct sequence, in a thread in which I was interested. One poster, in essence, complained that he couldn't include a photo or two in his post because he didn't understand the software and was too old to learn any of these new-fangled computer things. His was followed by a post bitterly complaining that the forum software is terrible and if "they" couldn't come up with better software, he was going to leave the forum. Neither of these was a Contributor.

    That got me thinking (always a dangerous pass-time). That led me to some conclusions:

    • I should pay up. I promptly became a Contributor and have renewed since then.
    • The forum infrastructure isn't free. It takes money to put these things up and make them work. No money = no forum.
    • Blindingly simple to use software is expensive to create and, hence, expensive to acquire and use. Less expensive software, sometimes even free software, is available, often (typically) requires more learning and more effort from the user.
    • The crusty old curmudgeons proud to announce their computer illiteracy and their unwillingness to learn should head over to get their woodworking inputs on YouTube. At 75, I may be crusty, I'm certainly old and my wife tells me constantly that I'm a curmudgeon. I'm not computer illiterate, tho', and I'm always ready to learn. If I can do it, so can those dudes, so I give 'em no attention. If they are that dumb, their posts can't be worth much. Maybe when the new software comes, it will include the ability to block individuals.
    • Those who threaten to leave the forum because of some perceived fault in the quality of their free ride should go. They aren't really going to be missed.
    • Those who are retired on fixed incomes and plead that they can't afford $6.00 per year - that's fifty cents a month - need to check their priorities and put their money where their values are. If that's not at SMC, then they won't really miss it when the free use ends.

    </rant>

    I would like to suggest that a (temporary) sticky note be posted to each sub-forum to direct every user to this thread to learn about the upcoming changes in software and contribution requirement. It would give everyone an opportunity to vent and to prepare themselves for this coming "calamity." Should turn this thread into an all-time classic.
    Last edited by John K Jordan; 12-15-2017 at 3:14 PM.
    Fair winds and following seas,
    Jim Waldron

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    South West Ontario
    Posts
    1,502
    With less than 10% of the people using the site being members there has to be lots of opportunity to increase membership. Perhaps content designed to appeal specifically to casual browsers; a guide list, what casual browsers look at, a suggested road map, learning module access.
    If membership can be increased then donations will follow. Using PayPal does buy peace of mind when donating this should be emphasised.
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Hayes, Virginia
    Posts
    14,762
    William,

    As new Members register the ratio of Contributors decreases. In other words a very small number of registered Members become Contributors. Generally speaking they don't feel the need to support SawMill Creek financially because they already have access to all of the primary woodworking forums. Although they don't have access to the Classifieds, FreeStuff and Lumberyard Forums it doesn't seem to be important to the majority here.

    I was the one who decided to set the annual donation to $6.00 per year because I felt that even younger Members could afford to become Contributors at 50 cents per month if Mom and Dad gave them an allowance. I did not want anyone to be left out from becoming a Contributor because of their age, I think its important that we welcome both male and female woodworkers of every age group. Initially I was sure that we would have a very large percentage of our Community who would support us financially and we would be able to provide quadruple the services we do now. For instance Aaron Koehl and I spent three weeks developing the features for what would have been a ShopTours module that would have been amazing times ten with features that nobody would ever expect to have access to. The programing costs would have been a bit expensive but I honestly felt that it was going to be the Disneyland of ShopTours and we could make it happen. We would have liked to have a second server at the opposite end of the country that could handle the traffic if one server went offline for any reason. We wanted to provide our own video server as well and a host of other services we could have provided if we generated the necessary funds. I never dreamed that we would have so few willing to support The Creek with such a low annual donation given the costs associated with woodworking today.

  5. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Outten View Post
    William,

    As new Members register the ratio of Contributors decreases. In other words a very small number of registered Members become Contributors. Generally speaking they don't feel the need to support SawMill Creek financially because they already have access to all of the primary woodworking forums. Although they don't have access to the Classifieds, FreeStuff and Lumberyard Forums it doesn't seem to be important to the majority here.

    I was the one who decided to set the annual donation to $6.00 per year because I felt that even younger Members could afford to become Contributors at 50 cents per month if Mom and Dad gave them an allowance. I did not want anyone to be left out from becoming a Contributor because of their age, I think its important that we welcome both male and female woodworkers of every age group. Initially I was sure that we would have a very large percentage of our Community who would support us financially and we would be able to provide quadruple the services we do now. For instance Aaron Koehl and I spent three weeks developing the features for what would have been a ShopTours module that would have been amazing times ten with features that nobody would ever expect to have access to. The programing costs would have been a bit expensive but I honestly felt that it was going to be the Disneyland of ShopTours and we could make it happen. We would have liked to have a second server at the opposite end of the country that could handle the traffic if one server went offline for any reason. We wanted to provide our own video server as well and a host of other services we could have provided if we generated the necessary funds. I never dreamed that we would have so few willing to support The Creek with such a low annual donation given the costs associated with woodworking today.
    When the content we want is free, paying for content we don't want (or don't realize we want) isn't a compelling idea.

    If the coming new software were to support it, I would suggest you consider a limited access provision for non-contributors; say perhaps free access to the first post in each thread, but no following posts without paying up. Another strategy might be to permit access to one thread per day/two-day interval/or etc. Enough teasers to let 'em know what they're missing. And enough to remind the vast number of tightwad Members what they have lost by not becoming Subscribers. And an early post to each sub-forum about what's coming - and why - may pump up the subscriptions before the change-over. I'm sure you have enough loyalists who would jump into such a thread to endorse the change (particularly if you enlist a few with discreet PM heads-up notes).

    You have a strong core of excellent Contributors in the sub-forums I frequent; I suspect the same is true in others as well. Many, perhaps most, also appear in one or more free access forums with corporate support. I suspect your "Coming Soon! ...." note represents a recognition of those contributions. Hopefully, you can offer those Contributors a sufficient value proposition to continue at the core of each sub-forum.

    I, for one, am glad to see what's in progress.
    Fair winds and following seas,
    Jim Waldron

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,582
    Quote Originally Posted by James Waldron View Post
    When the content we want is free, paying for content we don't want (or don't realize we want) isn't a compelling idea.

    If the coming new software were to support it, I would suggest you consider a limited access provision for non-contributors; say perhaps free access to the first post in each thread, but no following posts without paying up. Another strategy might be to permit access to one thread per day/two-day interval/or etc. Enough teasers to let 'em know what they're missing. And enough to remind the vast number of tightwad Members what they have lost by not becoming Subscribers. And an early post to each sub-forum about what's coming - and why - may pump up the subscriptions before the change-over. I'm sure you have enough loyalists who would jump into such a thread to endorse the change (particularly if you enlist a few with discreet PM heads-up notes).

    You have a strong core of excellent Contributors in the sub-forums I frequent; I suspect the same is true in others as well. Many, perhaps most, also appear in one or more free access forums with corporate support. I suspect your "Coming Soon! ...." note represents a recognition of those contributions. Hopefully, you can offer those Contributors a sufficient value proposition to continue at the core of each sub-forum.

    I, for one, am glad to see what's in progress.
    Sorry, but the ideas presented here seem counterproductive. The content here isn't like at FWW or PW. It's less compelling. I think you need to find a way to rely on advertisers. Eliminate the exceptions to advertisements that contributors get because their annual contributions don't offset the income loss.

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Camas, Wa
    Posts
    3,855
    Last I checked those who are not donating anything aren't breaking any rules. Everybody's situation is different. Everybody's reasons for donating/not donating are different. I don't look at ones status here before deciding whether the advice is valid. Post count is worthless also. The fact is that Keith made "free" an option and you can't fault someone for taking it. I don't always contribute. Attitudes like this prevent me from doing so. I needed access to the Classifieds so I played by the rule and sent my money. I couldn't care less if my title changed. I think it is just a way to guilt people into donating. I also think it divides us as seen in this thread. I didn't donate when the rules changed and member were subject to ads. I didn't notice them. The price I paid for free admission. Quite frankly I think Keith should make this a paid site and then double down with gold, silver, and platinum levels depending on the amount you give. That way those that get wrapped up in labels can distance themselves from the regular payers and make Keith even more money.

    rant off
    Last edited by Lee Schierer; 12-17-2017 at 8:28 AM.

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,582
    Or charge a service fee for buy and sell transactions here on classifieds, although I doubt that would be much of a revenue stream.

  9. #54
    I didn't know much about the difference between member and contributor under the name of a poster until I came to this thread. I thought contributors were people who had contributed an article or something.

    You can tell few on the member status come here to join in this discussion. But they are the people the owners of this site should seek out to hear from regarding this matter.

    As far as I know, this site, if made a "premium" forum (for paid-up members only), will be competing against sites like FW for membership on one hand, and on the other, will be risking the loss of some or many current "members" who also belong to other free woodworking forums (3 or 4 out there?).

    Perhaps, in a frank and honest exchange via PM/survey?, people can be asked if they would stay on here if access is only for paid-up members. Then you can get a rough idea of what membership change might be coming if the free access/membership is changed. Of course, this would work only if there are enough responses.

    I am of the belief that many "active" members here are not looking for deals or savings or advice but to share with other fellow woodworkers. Those are the people you want to hear from. It is invaluable to the decision making to find out if they would stick around after an entry fee (now zero) is set (with the proposed new content changes implemented).

    As someone has pointed out, if you gained a small % in contributors and revenue but lost a good chunk of current members after the exercise, over time -- in terms of years not months, the loss would reflect in the thread discussions. This is something the owners should have some informed assessment before making the switch. The worst outcome is the course -- whatever it may turn out to be -- needs to be reversed.

    Of course, if "those" are the people you do not want to come to the forum, then the consideration is different.

    Simon
    Last edited by Simon MacGowen; 12-17-2017 at 9:50 AM.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    Sorry, but the ideas presented here seem counterproductive. The content here isn't like at FWW or PW. It's less compelling. I think you need to find a way to rely on advertisers. Eliminate the exceptions to advertisements that contributors get because their annual contributions don't offset the income loss.
    The current state of ad blockers makes that a non-starter. Ad revenue can't be generated if ads are blocked and there's no currently effective way to eliminate ad blockers. An alternate revenue stream is essential.

    I think SMC is not in competition with FWW or PopWood; while they have compelling content, when was the last time you were able to obtain answers to your question or engage in dialog with your peers on either of those? When I spoke of free forums with corporate support, I was thinking of a site such as Woodnet, which is owned and supported by AIM. I see a number of SMC Members and Contributors over there and I post there myself on occasion. I find that SMC has greater depth for the topics I care about, so I always come back. In fact, I always come here first. I certainly value it enough to be a Contributor.

    And aside for Mr. Falk: No one has ever suggested that those not donating are breaking any rules. The topic at hand is that the current rules are not working and Keith is about to change the rules. How to best get that done for the benefit of the site as well as the financial stability of the site is the point. I don't know if Keith is open to suggestions such as mine or if his plans are already carved in granite, but I offer them in hopes they can be some help or perhaps start some constructive thought.
    Last edited by James Waldron; 12-17-2017 at 10:00 AM.
    Fair winds and following seas,
    Jim Waldron

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    N.E, Ohio
    Posts
    3,026
    Some websites that you can visit from Yahoo for news articles detect if ou have an active ad blocker and ask you to disable it for their site. If you do not disable it they limit your access by keeping the request block, which covers almost all of the screen, and it is basically difficult to read the page. Perhaps something like this if it could be configured to only impact non contributors would be worth looking into.

    This site has so many great participants with great help and good advice and it would be a shame to loose it for lack of financial support. I plan to increase my contribution when it comes up for renewal which I believe is in January or February.
    George

    Making sawdust regularly, occasionally a project is completed.

  12. #57
    I've known Keith for about a decade now. I've shared a meal or two with him, been to various meetups where he was there, he's been in my shop multiple times over the years, and we've had a number of discussions over the years.

    Not one single time has he ever said a single word about the difference between Members and Contributors. Not once. I can't speak FOR him, but I can speak ABOUT him. He's one of the most honest people I've known, and all I've ever heard him talk about is trying to do the things that keep SMC running. I know he and Jackie have spent 100's and 100's of hours courting advertisers to try and make this place work. They work their butts off and get little to no credit for anything.

    If there is a belief that Members and Contributors are different classes of people, then it's certainly not coming from the top. I can promise that. I know I don't believe that, and I know our Moderator team doesn't believe that. So let's just squash that right now.

    There are Members and Contributors that have provided years of quality advice on this forum. Period. Full stop.

    However, it's not free to host this website and maintain it. This isn't a $4.95 a month hosting plan that your family puts up for 30 people to see, it's a massive site with a huge amount of data moving back and forth that hosts over 1,000,000 visits a month. That costs money. If the belief is that everything should be ad free and free of charge, then I'm afraid that's probably not going to work. The revenue HAS to come from somewhere to keep the lights on. Two choices. Members or Advertisers. If Members turn off the ads and don't use the Advertisers, then the money has to come from somewhere. Honestly, I had turned the ads off myself. About 2 months ago, I turned them back on and I've now bought several things from ads I have seen on SMC. If everyone would do that simple thing, then it would help solve the issue. It would show value to the advertisers that their ad money isn't wasted, and give Jackie and Keith a leg to stand on when talking to new advertisers.

    None of my comments have been discussed with Keith, I'm not doing this on "his behalf", but I wanted to correct some of the issues I have read that are just factually inaccurate. He also might come on here and tell you that I'm completely wrong. But that's my read on what's going on.

    There is no "Us against Them" mentality here. It's "We" and what "We" need to do to keep the lights on. Easy fix, turn the ads on, click on the ones that interest you, and buy the things you need from clicking on those links.
    Lasers : Trotec Speedy 300 75W, Trotec Speedy 300 80W, Galvo Fiber Laser 20W
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    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

  13. #58

    About Ad Blockers

    I misspoke in my earlier post, saying that there is no effective way to avoid ad blockers. There is and it's pretty widely used in commercial sites. As I understand it, which is always suspect, ads can signal when they are loaded or blocked; in such cases, when ad blockers are detected, the content is blocked to the visitor unless the ad blocker is disabled and the ad loads. If you get around on the Internet, you've probably run into sites that behave that way. I believe that such software tools are expensive, hardware intensive, and consume vast amounts of bandwidth. That's three compelling reasons blocker avoidance is not effectively available to Keith.

    Even commercial sites are moving away from these tools and moving their content behind pay walls. Whether we like it or not, the Internet is becoming far less free and more and more content is going to cost users.

    As dedicated anarchists, we all want free content. On the other hand, unless we reward content creators and providers, there won't be any content. There ain't no free lunch, boys.

    In reality, we will all end up paying, in one form or another, for the content we want. Hopefully, that won't be bundled with a lot of content we don't want but have to pay for anyway, as it's done with cable tv providers.
    Last edited by James Waldron; 12-17-2017 at 10:24 AM.
    Fair winds and following seas,
    Jim Waldron

  14. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon MacGowen View Post
    I didn't know much about the difference between member and contributor under the name of a poster until I came to this thread. I thought contributors were people who had contributed an article or something.
    That was also my first thought when i got here.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Bokros View Post
    Some websites that you can visit from Yahoo for news articles detect if ou have an active ad blocker and ask you to disable it for their site. If you do not disable it they limit your access by keeping the request block, which covers almost all of the screen, and it is basically difficult to read the page.
    Any site I go to that does this, I either defeat that (trivial to do so) or move on to a site that doesn't. I started using an ad blocker when I realized that loads of sites were abusing it, and providing precious little content surrounded by a page full of ads vying for my attention. Many of those ads interfered with page loads, and some caused the page to shift and change as I was reading so it could reload itself with something new. Then there were the ads for sites I'd visited that left tracking cookies made available to the ads on the page on *different* sites (google adsense ads are notorious for this), touting sales on items I'd looked at while at the previous site. Intrusive, and tracking...I started blocking.
    They brought this on themselves.

    I'm not looking to take any money away from folks that run sites (I'm in the business of creating and hosting sites, so I know the costs involved), I just don't want to be assaulted by them on every page I visit. For my 2 cents, I think this site should have loads of ads for non members (since they give nothing back), less for members (they give of their time and expertise), and even less for contributors (if they choose not to see them). Programmatically it may be difficult to enact, but I'd consider that fair. Blocking access until you pay? That will hurt in the long run.

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    SE PA - Central Bucks County
    Posts
    65,694
    Scott, well stated. I've also shared meals with Keith and Jackie and your description of them and the journey is spot on.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

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