Sharpening - dealing with the wire edge.

[Stanley Covington]

Hope you have a great time in CT!

If your travels lead you to Tokyo, please let me know. I would love to meet you in person.

Regards,

Stan

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Stan. Tokyo is definitely on the bucket list. And I hope you get to Perth one of these days.

Best regards

Derek

[ernest dubois]

Stanley, I think you are saying that at the moment the initial burr that develops at the lower grit stone is detectable it is time to move on to finer grit or even more ideally one would move up a grit just before, (inking the bevel as visual confirmation is better than the tactile confirmation the burr gives, if I understand you), there is a detectable burr and that a fully developed burr, one that is ready to release wouldn't even occur until the final strokes on the finest grit stone, and then come off with a stroke on the reverse side.
As I understand your posture toward the occurrence of a burr it has no utility in and of itself.

[Stanley Covington]

Stanley, I think you are saying that at the moment the initial burr that develops at the lower grit stone is detectable it is time to move on to finer grit or even more ideally one would move up a grit just before, (inking the bevel as visual confirmation is better than the tactile confirmation the burr gives, if I understand you), there is a detectable burr and that a fully developed burr, one that is ready to release wouldn't even occur until the final strokes on the finest grit stone, and then come off with a stroke on the reverse side.
As I understand your posture toward the occurrence of a burr it has no utility in and of itself.

Your summary of my position is partially correct. Allow me to restate.

First, manage the bevel angle, bevel flatness, and sharpening angle to ensure a big fat burr is not created, except when it is necessary to waste a lot of steel to remove chips or damage at the cutting edge. This assumes, of course, that the blade's steel is decent. The bevel angle gauge and ink on the bevel help with these tasks.

Second, the burr created on the first stone should be miniscule, evenly sized, and continue across the full length of the blade's width. Ideally, it will be difficult or even impossible to see with the naked eye, but detectable when you pass your fingerprints over it. If the blade is chipped or damaged, you will be able to feel discontinuities in the burr with your fingers and fingernail. When you reach this point, you can consider whether or not to move onto the next finer stone.

This burr should then disappear entirely on the next stone in the process leaving a clean, undamaged cutting edge. Physically breaking it off, or tearing it off in wood endgrain is counterproductive. Derek said the same thing, I believe. You don't want to work harden the burr, or leave a jagged edge behind, just abrade it smoothly away.

Before you move on to the finest stone in your series, there should be no detectable burr remaining. Fine stones excel at removing scratches and refining/smoothing the blade's surface, but are not effective at removing burrs.

Last week I visited with a professional sharpener in Nagaoka that specializes in sharpening blades newly forged by blacksmiths. We discussed this very subject. He uses carborundum stones followed by a lapping plate to develop the bevel, just like Nakano san. This creates a small burr, of course. He then uses a #1000 grit King stone, leaving NO burr behind. Of course, since these are new blades, he is working both bevel and flat on his stones. He then switches to a natural finishing stone. Not sure what the equivalent grit would be in synthetic stone terms. He produces a very good edge, with the beautiful appearance only natural waterstones can produce, on 40-50 plane blades a day. This jump to a natural stone straight from 1000 grit synthetic stone is a technique I have seen other top professionals in Japan use. Not just professional blade sharpeners either. I assume this is because they are able to do a superior job on the rougher stones than non-professional sharpeners. It is a a beautiful process to see.

I hope this makes sense.

Stan

[ernest dubois]

Thanks Stan for laying it out like that.
As I understand this is all, the thread, the bulk of the discussion ect... is going on and on in particular about plane irons with obvious application for chisels and maybe, theoretically, or under conditions of incredible discipline and control; edge geometry, steel characteristics at the moment of sharpening, condition of the sharpening surface ect... , each and every edge. In regards to planes and chisels I think this Japanese conception is obviously a practical one and have no reason to doubt it but for many other tools, gouges, gutter adzes, drawknives, axes and knives - what about your straight-edge razor? to name a few, just for the purpose of visualization, I find the burr - given that this implies a certain liberal attitude toward sacrificing steel - the most reliable - in that there is actual evidence - way to judge the moment of reaching the 0° defining actual sharpness, I mean, lets say as opposed to the fingernail test or intuition - not to discount that last at all, or at least in all cases - or something involving much more subjectivity. This is all just to say that, at least in my own case, the burr is not to be discounted. With the exception of when your steel is crap, and even then, you know at least there is no more need to waste your time on such an edge. As far as forcing the burr off whether jamming into ingrain - new to me - stropping the Doug Miller way - or who was it now? you will have an edge to work with for sure, it will just be a short-lived one, and I wouldn't want to shave my face with that edge.

[steven c newman]

And...you expect to learn all of that..from the "Normal" sharpening threads that haunt this site...........Riiiight...

[Stanley Covington]

Thanks Stan for laying it out like that.
As I understand this is all, the thread, the bulk of the discussion ect... is going on and on in particular about plane irons with obvious application for chisels and maybe, theoretically, or under conditions of incredible discipline and control; edge geometry, steel characteristics at the moment of sharpening, condition of the sharpening surface ect... , each and every edge. In regards to planes and chisels I think this Japanese conception is obviously a practical one and have no reason to doubt it but for many other tools, gouges, gutter adzes, drawknives, axes and knives - what about your straight-edge razor? to name a few, just for the purpose of visualization, I find the burr - given that this implies a certain liberal attitude toward sacrificing steel - the most reliable - in that there is actual evidence - way to judge the moment of reaching the 0° defining actual sharpness, I mean, lets say as opposed to the fingernail test or intuition - not to discount that last at all, or at least in all cases - or something involving much more subjectivity. This is all just to say that, at least in my own case, the burr is not to be discounted. With the exception of when your steel is crap, and even then, you know at least there is no more need to waste your time on such an edge. As far as forcing the burr off whether jamming into ingrain - new to me - stropping the Doug Miller way - or who was it now? you will have an edge to work with for sure, it will just be a short-lived one, and I wouldn't want to shave my face with that edge.

Ernest:

Most of the points you make escape me. Sorry.

If I understand it correctly, I respectfully disagree with your point (?) that "the burr... the most reliable - in that there is actual evidence - way to judge the moment of reaching the 0° defining actual sharpness..." If a burr exists at some point in time, the edge has not yet reached 0°. The thickness of the attached burr's root is the width of the actual cutting edge at that point in time, which is not zero. I think this is obvious.

Some like the idea that once the burr or "wire" is formed, continued sharpening will cause it to be severed cleanly from the edge in one piece. Perhaps this can happen, but what benefit does the extra length of a long "wire" provide compared to a miniscule burr? All I see is wasted time and the risk of a raggedy edge.

I am not saying to "discount" the burr. Please reread my posts carefully and confirm this. I am saying that only a miniscule burr is necessary, certainly not a "wire," and that a large "wire" is a result of careless sharpening technique. I am also asserting that there is no benefit to be gained by toying with the miniscule burr once it develops, but instead one should get right to work creating the 0° you mentioned. Indeed, if the blade geometry is properly maintained, it is my experience that the burr will disappear quickly leaving the desired 0° edge.

Does this address your points?

I am confused.

[Stanley Covington]

I use a straight razor custom made for me by Iwasaki from tamahagane. It seldom needs to be sharpened because I strop it on linen. No compound. When I do sharpen it, I use only a dedicated, fine grit, soft, natural stone.

I do not try to create a burr because I am experienced enough to discern the edge's progress.

Sharpening the razor does not consume much stone. But this is not a practical approach for planes and chisels and knives.

Unlike a straight razor, a plane blade, chisel blade, or knife blade almost always have some damage that must be removed. They are subjected to more abuse than a straight razor. Removing this damage requires wasting more metal.

A detectable burr is good way to confirm this damage has been eliminated. But the big loopy "wire" some feel to be a necessary step in sharpening is wasteful IMO. I don't know about you, but my blades are expensive, and my time is worth a lot, so I don't want to waste either.

With that thought, and vacation ending, this will be my last post for a few more weeks.

[lowell holmes]

My experience is that stropping on rawhide leather charged with green stropping compound works.
I learned this at a Paul Sellers class in Elm Mott Texas (Homestead Heritage) many years ago.
Like Paul, I keep a diamond hone out on the bench. When the edge needs touching up, two or three strokes
on the hone followed by stropping leaves a scary sharp edge.


DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS..

[ernest dubois]

Ernest:

Most of the points you make escape me. Sorry.

If I understand it correctly, I respectfully disagree with your point (?) that "the burr... the most reliable - in that there is actual evidence - way to judge the moment of reaching the 0° defining actual sharpness..." If a burr exists at some point in time, the edge has not yet reached 0°. The thickness of the attached burr's root is the width of the actual cutting edge at that point in time, which is not zero. I think this is obvious.

Some like the idea that once the burr or "wire" is formed, continued sharpening will cause it to be severed cleanly from the edge in one piece. Perhaps this can happen, but what benefit does the extra length of a long "wire" provide compared to a miniscule burr? All I see is wasted time and the risk of a raggedy edge.

I am not saying to "discount" the burr. Please reread my posts carefully and confirm this. I am saying that only a miniscule burr is necessary, certainly not a "wire," and that a large "wire" is a result of careless sharpening technique. I am also asserting that there is no benefit to be gained by toying with the miniscule burr once it develops, but instead one should get right to work creating the 0° you mentioned. Indeed, if the blade geometry is properly maintained, it is my experience that the burr will disappear quickly leaving the desired 0° edge.

Does this address your points?

I am confused.

Ernest:

Most of the points you make escape me. Sorry.

If I understand it correctly, I respectfully disagree with your point (?) that "the burr... the most reliable - in that there is actual evidence - way to judge the moment of reaching the 0° defining actual sharpness..." If a burr exists at some point in time, the edge has not yet reached 0°. The thickness of the attached burr's root is the width of the actual cutting edge at that point in time, which is not zero. I think this is obvious.

Some like the idea that once the burr or "wire" is formed, continued sharpening will cause it to be severed cleanly from the edge in one piece. Perhaps this can happen, but what benefit does the extra length of a long "wire" provide compared to a miniscule burr? All I see is wasted time and the risk of a raggedy edge.

I am not saying to "discount" the burr. Please reread my posts carefully and confirm this. I am saying that only a miniscule burr is necessary, certainly not a "wire," and that a large "wire" is a result of careless sharpening technique. I am also asserting that there is no benefit to be gained by toying with the miniscule burr once it develops, but instead one should get right to work creating the 0° you mentioned. Indeed, if the blade geometry is properly maintained, it is my experience that the burr will disappear quickly leaving the desired 0° edge.

Does this address your points?


I am confused.

I don't want to ruffle feathers so please forgive me.
Ok, we stick strictly to the plane and chisel family.
At the point when the burr releases of its own accord, the angle at the edge is then close to the theoretical 0°. That was my meaning. It was a blunder not saying it outright just then.
No disagreement as far as I can tell on, the smaller the burr the better, or let me put it another way, the more ideal. Raise the burr and get on with it, I also say. What is important is the existence of the burr along the entire length of the blade, the more consistent the better. But you know, and I must confess, sometimes I get the beginnings of a burr here and not there and before I do get the burr there, who knows, maybe I have let a hollow in the stone develop, or something, un-centralized downward pressure on the blade, I don't know, but it happens, call it sloppiness then if you want but that burr is more developed at the edges than through the middle. Yes, I will address the cause of the problem - this time or the next time - but it does happen, bla bla bla, ok I go on and on...

But I did go back quickly through your posting ups Stan and I'm sorry when I missed it or am to dim to catch on but in your process I don't see how you are using the burr other than maybe as a gauge of consistency or whether the geometry of the bevel and flatness of the stone are in sync.

I too rarely sharpen my straight-edge, stropping all the time you know. But it has been 10 years or more since I took my razor strop from the bathroom and hung it at my sharpening station in the workshop, and that a razor of any kind has crossed my rosy cheek.P8010811.jpg

[Stewie Simpson]

To add further to the confusion Stanley iterations on working the full bevel, and avoiding 2 bevel angles, refers to the Japanese practice of a single flat bevel to protect the softer laminate steel relevant to Japanese chisels and plane irons. It has little to no relevance to the common practice in western world countries of a hollow ground primary, followed by a steeper secondary bevel.

[lowell holmes]

I never had issues with the burr breaking off. My edges are razor sharp.
Barbers have stropped razors for centuries. I consider it to be a proven practice.
I don't sharpen my plane irons and chisels thin. I think my bevel is probably close to 30 degrees.
I will measure them tomorrow.

Don't over think this issue of sharpening. If you had 15 woodworker in a class, there would probably be 15 different
ways of sharpening.

[Patrick Chase]

Don't over think this issue of sharpening. If you had 15 woodworker in a class, there would probably be 15 different
ways of sharpening.

More ways than that, I think :-).

[Robert Hazelwood]

I agree with the idea that ideal sharpening would create no burr at all, and that if any burr must be created the smaller the better. I sharpen knives like this. But with woodworking tools with a bevel on one side only, this is not so feasible. This is especially true for plane irons- if the iron has any significant amount of wear (a visible wear bevel on the back) it is always the case that I will form a burr before the wear is completely removed. By the time the wear is gone, the wire edge may be fairly large, depending on how worn the iron was. I will usually work the back a little on the finish stone before continuing bevel work on the next stone, which minimizes the burr.

[Stewie Simpson]

Well stated Robert. The size of the wire edge being worked from your roughest stone is of little consequence. What's of primary consideration is removal of the wear line, and the re-establishment of the steeper secondary bevel. The initial wire edge will diminish in size as you proceed further through your finer grit stones.