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Thread: Calling all owners of Lie-Nielsen Scraping Planes; 212 112 85

  1. #1

    Calling all owners of Lie-Nielsen Scraping Planes; 212 112 85

    Hello all,

    I was given a 212 Scraping plane from a very kind family member for Christmas. I must be doing something wrong however, as the only shavings I am currently getting are either so rough, they are like a blunt plane iron would give you (complete with dreaded tearout), or just dust, like a blunt cabinet scraper would give you.

    To run through what I have done; I have set it at 45 degrees in my honing guide, so the bevel is completely flat to the stone. Then honed it on a 1,000 waterstone, and then a 8,000 waterstone (but without slightly raising the angle for the 8,000, as I would for a normal plane iron). Then I lapped the back of the iron on the 8,000 stone, to roll off the wire edge. Should one hone it at a higher angle to 45 degrees on the 1,000 stone , and even higher still on the 8,000?

    I then set it in the Plane, which I have sat on a piece of float glass. I have tried setting it both completely flat, and with a piece of paper underneath the tongue of the plane. I am careful not to overtighten the thumbscrew on the bronze cap.

    I am then trying to use it as one would with a normal plane iron, not pressing too hard; just with a nice even smooth pressure all along. the piece of wood.

    Please could somebody with experience of this tool, also explain to me, if one moves the frog so the blade is more vertical (towards 90 degrees from flat), will that make the blade cut more, or less? And vice-versa, if I move the frog backwards, so it is more towards 70 degrees from flat, what effect does that have on the cutting action of the blade?

    Any help would be very kind. Thanks.

  2. #2
    I have also just noticed that the base of the frog on my 212 is lopsided. Is this a fault? Should I return it for a replacement? Any advice again, would be much appreciated.
    Have a good day.

    212 sole.jpg

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Did you check out the manufacturer's website? I've never been a fan of that plane, the 112 or #12 works much better in my opinion and turning a burr and sharpening the iron is much easier. You can make a regular scraping blade for that plane out of an old used up saw and see if it works any better. The great virtue of any kind of scraper is you can file, quickly hone and turn a burr in 2 minutes. That efficiency is lost on a blade made of thick tool steel. Try it and see. That plane seems to be coveted by guys who make bamboo fly rods by using it to taper the blanks before gluing them together.

    Blade Sharpening:

    Our Scraping Plane comes with a much thicker blade than the original. This allows the blade to be prepared somewhat differently than other scrapers. We recommend that you hone the blade to a sharp edge like a plane blade and do not use a burr (at least until you get used to using the tool). We have found that our thick scraper blades sharpen easily and produce a better surface with a 45 bevel on the blade. Slightly round the corners of the blade with a stone to prevent them from marking the work.Burnishing:

    If you wish to create a burr, hone the blade, and then clamp it upright in a vise. Using a burnisher, begin by holding the burnisher at about 45 to the blade, working up to 75. Work the edge until you can feel a distinct ‘hook’ all the way across. Be very careful not to cut yourself on the upright blade. Use of a burr will give more aggressive cutting action, and depending on how consistent you are, turning the burr will require adjustment of the blade angle after sharpening to work best.Setting the Blade:

    The blade is inserted with the bevel facing the knob. To set the depth of cut, lay the sole of the tool on a flat surface and loosen the thumbscrew. Press lightly on the top of the blade with your thumb and re-tighten the thumbscrew. Do not over tighten. Usually, this will be enough exposure for a fine shaving. If not, repeat with a slip of paper under the front of the tool. Minor depth adjustments may also be made quickly by lightly tapping the top of the blade with a burnisher or light hammer while the tool is resting on a flat board.Adjusting Blade Angle:

    The blade angle should be set about 15 forward of vertical. Try adjusting the angle to find optimum performance in various woods. One way to get it close is to take some test passes holding the blade by hand, varying the angle until it cuts best, then hold the blade at that angle against the side of the plane and adjust the frog to match. The beveled faces of the nuts fit into the countersink on the hole in the post to provide a solid lock. Use: Normally, one pushes the Scraping Plane from the rear with the knob in the palm. The blade is inserted with a bevel facing the knob. It is best to use a light touch, rather than trying to remove too much material at once, or using too much downward pressure. Too aggressive a cut, including too much downward pressure, will result in chatter. You should be taking light strokes. Often it is helpful to scrape at an angle to the grain, then again from the opposite angle. David Charlesworth has a good discussion on the use of scrapers in his book Furniture Making Techniques, Vol. II.
    Last edited by Pete Taran; 01-04-2018 at 8:38 PM.

  4. #4
    What kind of wood are you using it on? It sounds like it might want at least a light burr on the blade.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
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    Ste-Julienne, Qc, Canada
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    I used to have the large scraping plane from Lie-Nielsen but all I was getting was vibrations. I kept that plane for a whole year and every once in a while I was trying to get it to work properly. I had notice that the blade wasn't supported in the centre at all, only on the sides. Took pictures, sent them to LN and they offer right away to replace it or reimburse me without me even asking. I took the money and bought a 4-1/2 from them.

    I have tried with different sharpening - with or without a hook (Deneb at LN told me it should be without a hook) but the results didn't change...vibrations.

  6. #6
    Join Date
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    Read the last paragraph of Pete Taran's post again. To paraphrase: Take the blade out of the plane and take a shaving with the blade held like a normal hand scraper. Transfer that same angle to the planes frog and lock it in. In other words, use the plane body and frog to duplicate your hand position. Don't change that frog angle, ever, but you can tweak the depth of cut using hammer taps. I find that it is best to not roll a burr on the scraper blade because it totally changes the effective cutting angle. Use a 45 degree sharpening angle. I have a 112 and a 212 and this works equally well in both. These are great tools.
    Last edited by Mike Brady; 01-05-2018 at 1:18 PM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Howdy Theo and welcome to the Creek. My success with scraping is minimal. Others are sure to have some answers.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    Rural, West Central Minn
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    125
    Theo,
    I have both the large and small, both are vary good tools. Pete T. gives good advise you also might want to try using less downward hand pressure.
    Chet

  9. #9
    Thanks all so much for your advice so far! I will be sure to try it.
    What do you all think of the angle of the base of the frog? Do you think this is a big fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Theo Hall View Post
    I have also just noticed that the base of the frog on my 212 is lopsided. Is this a fault? Should I return it for a replacement? Any advice again, would be much appreciated.
    Have a good day.

    212 sole.jpg

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
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    I don't see any mention of burnishing/hooking in your description of your sharpening workflows. Did you do that?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    I don't see any mention of burnishing/hooking in your description of your sharpening workflows. Did you do that?
    I didn't, mainly because Lie-Nielsen suggested not burnishing/hooking this tool initially; they claim it works well without hooking..?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theo Hall View Post
    I didn't, mainly because Lie-Nielsen suggested not burnishing/hooking this tool initially; they claim it works well without hooking..?
    An unhooked scraper is just that: A scraper. The edge engages the wood at a >90 deg angle, which means that it simply can't cleanly cut the fibers. I would expect it to be limited to fairly thin, dusty shavings and to "gouge" if you try to take too thick of a cut (i.e. exactly what you described).

    Burnishing the leading edge of a scraper forms a hook on its leading edge, that meets the wood at a much lower angle (60 deg or less). Doing that changes the mechanics from scraping to cutting, and allows a plane-like (not dusty) shaving to be taken.

    There is no magic in cutting mechanics, and no reason why the L-N 212 would be different from every other scraping plane in the known universe.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post

    There is no magic in cutting mechanics, and no reason why the L-N 212 would be different from every other scraping plane in the known universe.
    Have a look at LN video starting at 4:10 minutes. They do not recommend a hook but their method didn't work at all for me.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j342Bo_p1UU

  14. #14
    Join Date
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    Consider that the Lie-Nielsen video represents what they demonstrate at their Hand Tool Event, and that they make the planes in question. Call and ask for assistance. If you use their live chat service on the web page, Tom Lie-Nielsen's daughter generally is the correspondent. She can get you answers and help. At their demos they don't say that the burr is right or wrong, but rather you don't need to have a burr to get effective scraping. I have long experience with the LN 212 and 112 scraper planes, not utilizing any sharpening beyond an 8000-10000 water stone. The scraper from them that I did not keep very long was the #85 that has a fixed blade angle. I found that the variable angle is needed depending on the type of wood being scraped.
    Last edited by Mike Brady; 01-05-2018 at 11:21 AM.

  15. #15
    Join Date
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    Theo,

    It occurred to me, do you have experience sharpening and using an ordinary card scraper with success? Can you file, stone and roll a burr with success everytime? If not, you might consider starting there and master the art of the hook and how to use it before moving on to more complicated applications like scraper planes. The Stanley #80 is cheap and there are many examples around both old and new production. I'd move there next and figure out how to use that tool before fussing with the 212. In my mind, the 212 is a very specialized tool that has limited use compared to other models like the 12 and 112. While the 112 has a great reputation and is sought after, I think the much less expensive 12 is easier to use and produces better results.

    Irons for these scrapers can be an issue, but since they are just spring steel, you can make your own very easily. Just find a used up junker saw that has a relatively rust free blade. Mark it out a little wider than you need and take a 3 corner file and file a groove on the waste side of the mark. Go about 1/2 way through the steel. Then just put it in a vise and bend. It will snap right off. Then clean the ragged edge up by drawfiling and adjust to the right width. Last, file the 45 degree bevel, stone and draw a burr. Assuming you don't have an old saw in your shop, you can find one easily in a second hand store. While you are at it, look for a sharpening steel for kitchen knives. If you remove the serrations by grinding and polishing, they make great burnishing rods. You can get away with using a screwdriver or a relatively thick diameter drill bit (cobalt works better than HSS). Use the shank of course.

    Finally, card scrapers that you hold in your hand are filed square. Most scraper planes have 45 degree bevels. Hope this helps.

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