Calling all owners of Lie-Nielsen Scraping Planes; 212 112 85

[Pat Barry]

OK, just for kicks i tried setting my LV scraping plane (112 equivalent) for moderately aggressive shaving on a maple offcut. The shavings range from under 1 to ~2 mils thick and basically look like plane shavings. The resulting surface has decent sheen, much better than I can do with sandpaper or an un-hooked scraper but worse than I can achieve with a smoothing plane.

Attachment 375661
This isn't rocket science or even remotely difficult. It takes a little practice to figure out how to turn a consistent hook without mangling the edge, but that's about it.

I can't understand for the life of me why L-N is providing the advice that they are. I understand that they cater to a lot of "well-heeled amateurs" who want stuff that works out of the box, but correct scraper setup is one of those things that everybody has to learn, preferably sooner rather than later. As noted above their assertion than thickening the blade eliminates the need for burring is incomprehensibly bogus - Adding more metal to the top of the iron doesn't change the cutting mechanics down at the edge.

I suppose that with a relatively thick shaving like you are taking here (nice work by the way), that is not the optimum way to use the tool to get the best finish. What I mean is that if you didn't get a smooth and glassy surface then you are taking too much material off. Take it back a notch so that you are hardly taking anything for a shaving (like LN advises) and I bet you get a better surface..

[Patrick Chase]

I suppose that with a relatively thick shaving like you are taking here (nice work by the way), that is not the optimum way to use the tool to get the best finish. What I mean is that if you didn't get a smooth and glassy surface then you are taking too much material off. Take it back a notch so that you are hardly taking anything for a shaving (like LN advises) and I bet you get a better surface..

You can get a finer surface with a thinner shaving, but certainly not "like LN advises". If you cut at 90+ degrees (which is what happens with an unhooked scraper) then your surface will invariably suffer because you will be pulling at wood fibers instead of cleanly severing them. That's just basic wood-cutting mechanics, and it's why their advice is so unbelievably perverse.

If I want to take a wispy shaving and get the finest possible surface then I would probably use a card scraper with a very fine hook. As I said in an earlier post you can do an incredibly wide range of work with scrapers, and the planes were designed for the heavier end of that spectrum. With that said I'd note that the shaving on the right of that picture is down in the sub-mil range. It's pretty thin.

[Stewie Simpson]

Stewie,

Yes, I always use a slight camber.

David

Appreciate the feedback David. This morning I tested my Stanley #81 with a light camber across the cutting edge, on a Jarrah plane stock I am currently working on. A 30 degree primary bevel on the bench grinder, followed by a 45 degree secondary bevel on a sharpening stone. The back of the blade was then worked over the stone to remove the burr.

[Patrick Chase]

Stewie, did you hit that with a toothing plane before scraping?

I'm guessing "yes" from the ribbon-like quality of the shavings.

[Stewie Simpson]

Stewie, did you hit that with a toothing plane before scraping?

I'm guessing "yes" from the ribbon-like quality of the shavings.

Patrick; no I did not use a toothing plane. What your seeing are shavings straight from the scraper plane.

[Pete Taran]

Whenever I encounter one of these discussions, I always look to see what they did in the old days. My thinking is with all the work that people did for their livelihood back in the old days, if there was a need for a thick, 1/8" scraping iron they would have made one. They didn't. All the ones I've ever seen are spring steel and much thinner. I think this is a case of LN thinking that there was some good justification for this sort of iron, but in practice, it just isn't there. I will say again that the great virtue of scrapers is how fast and easy they can be sharpened. I even roll and reroll a burr without doing a single bit of filing or stoning. I rarely stone my scrapers and get a great shaving.

I do have the plane, and I do have the thick iron, but I never use it. Takes too long to prepare and too long to maintain. Having said that, I rarely use the 212, except when working unruly small areas that require that kind of control.

YMMV

[Stewie Simpson]

Whenever I encounter these type of open forum discussions I look for those members that can validate their claims by providing some photos.

After flattening the top surface of Tiger Myrtle with a smoothing plane;



Moving on to a scraper plane;

How long did it take to resharpen that cutting edge on the scraper iron. It was as quick as re-honing the edge on that smoothing plane iron.




The scraped top surface revealed;

[Pete Taran]

Stewart,

Shall I take a picture of all the scraping planes I own with thin, original spring steel blades installed? Not sure how that adds to the discussion or the point I made.

[Patrick Chase]

I will say again that the great virtue of scrapers is how fast and easy they can be sharpened. I even roll and reroll a burr without doing a single bit of filing or stoning. I rarely stone my scrapers and get a great shaving.

That's one trick I haven't mastered. My shavings look OK but I get more surface tracking/striation than i like when I re-roll the burrs on my scrapers without filing/stoning. The work-hardened burr is certainly more brittle than virgin spring steel, so I probably need to go about re-turning it more gradually/gently or something along those lines.

[Stewie Simpson]

Stewart,

Shall I take a picture of all the scraping planes I own with thin, original spring steel blades installed? Not sure how that adds to the discussion or the point I made.

Pete; it would certainly benefit the OP if you supplied a photo of the shavings from a well tuned 212.

[Patrick Chase]

Whenever I encounter one of these discussions, I always look to see what they did in the old days. My thinking is with all the work that people did for their livelihood back in the old days, if there was a need for a thick, 1/8" scraping iron they would have made one. They didn't. All the ones I've ever seen are spring steel and much thinner.

Pete undoubtedly knows this, but I think there are a few reasons why almost everybody used (and uses) thin spring steel:

1. It's inexpensive. Blue-hard 1095 sheet has been ubiquitously available for a very long time. If you want to save some money on scrapers, then head on over to McMaster-Carr or any other supplier of quality metals. The classic Sandvik scraper is 0.032", and the Stanley #112 is 3/64" = 0.047" per Derek (the LV version is 0.055"). You could make 8 #112-sized irons out of that 4" x 24" x 0.05" sheet that they sell for all of $31.41. It might even make sense to do so (including the value of your time).
2. It's stiff enough to do the job in skilled hands.
3. It's flexible enough to be cambered, which provides a fair degree of control for working into low spots and keeping the corners off the work. This is done by directly flexing the scraper in the case of a card, and via the camber screw in the #80 and the LV planes.
4. As a bonus, cambering stiffens the scraper quite a bit and reduces the required thickness. In engineering we call this a "virtuous cycle".

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks for linking my article, Patrick. This was probably written about 10 or so years ago, and is a comparison of thick and thin scraper plane blades. In a nutshell, they produced similar results, but the thicker blade was more pleasant to use (quieter!).

Both were capable of continuous shavings, such as Tasmanian Oak, here ...



To answer one earlier question - why does LN recommend a blade sans hook? - they suggest that a hook is for advanced users. In other words, the blade-without-a-hook is an easy set up recommended to beginners.

Personally, I do not use scraper planes, and probably have not done so for about 10 years, and very lightly in the 10 years before then. In recent years, since the re-introduction of the chipbreaker, I have not even looked at a scraper plane. Before then, a high cutting angle was usually sufficient in even the most interlocked wood. On the other hand, I do use card scrapers or cabinet scrapers (I prefer the latter term) because these excel at smoothing small sections, or curved sections ... scraper planes are designed to smooth long, flat sections. They are one-shot tools and lack the flexibility I treasure in a cabinet scraper.

A few years ago I discovered thick cabinet scrapers. I made one out of the rear of a 1/8" plane blade. This is sharpened to a fine wire on a bench grinder. No other preparation is needed ...



Used here to shape and smooth the inside (concave) of a bow drawer front ...



It is amazing the fine finish that is achieved off such a crude edge.

How does this help in setting up scraper plane blades? Essentially, there are many methods of use, and you need to find the one that fits with your work method or need. Experiment.

Regards from Cape Town

Derek

[Pat Barry]

Whenever I encounter these type of open forum discussions I look for those members that can validate their claims by providing some photos.

After flattening the top surface of Tiger Myrtle with a smoothing plane;



Moving on to a scraper plane;

How long did it take to resharpen that cutting edge on the scraper iron. It was as quick as re-honing the edge on that smoothing plane iron.




The scraped top surface revealed;

Thanks Stewie, that's what I was attempting to describe. More like dust than shavings because very little material being removed. Not to say you can't use a card scraper with an agressive hook if needed for more significant material removal.

[Derek Cohen]

..... that's what I was attempting to describe. More like dust than shavings because very little material being removed. Not to say you can't use a card scraper with an agressive hook if needed for more significant material removal.

Pat, if you are getting dust off a cabinet scraper or scraper plane, then the blade has not been set up correctly. The scraper - whether hand held or plane held - should cut in a similar manner to a plane. The hook creates a cutting edge. Yes, you can use a blade sans hook, but it is not cutting. It is truly scraping, and that leaves a poor finish. A scraper can be set yo to take very fine shavings, or thick shavings - this depends on the size of the hook. I would say that a scraper plane which has a hook on the blade but is creating dust is likely set at the incorrect angle.

Moderately thick shavings off a cabinet scraper ...

[img]https://s19.postimg.org/npzc68mr7/Scraping_html_7731962a_zpsjhnogkss.jpg[/img]

Thin shavings from a #112 ...



Thick Hard Maple shavings ...



Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pat Barry]

It is called a scraper afterall.http://www.finewoodworking.com/2005/...a-card-scraper